Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Hey, everybody, it's Lacey.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: And I'm Lauren.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: And welcome back to another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: And today we're going to be. Obviously today is a no client day for me. I'm in my sweats and no makeup, but that's the perks of, you know, owning your own business. But today we are going to talk about the First Amendment and kind of little constitutional arguments here. And this is kind of just some stuff. We have kind of a little mini series about kind of what the public doesn't always understand or doesn't know.
We're going to talk in the future about what we're going to get, like what happens in movies and stuff like that and the actual process of trials and how it all works. But today we are going to dig into the First Amendment and constitutional rights, since that's something that I think is a complicated matter.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think with this series, it's public perception versus reality. That's a good way to call or a good thing to call this series and addressing things that people think are true and happening in the legal world that are so vastly different from what they understand it to be. So before we get started on the topic, my paralegal had inquired about this, so I thought it would be a good question to address on our podcast. And that is, what does it take to be a lawyer? What degrees do you need to be a practicing attorney here in South Carolina?
[00:01:36] Speaker B: So here in South Carolina is pretty straightforward. What you have to do, you have to go to college, get your four will, get bachelor's and whatever you want. So realistically, you don't have to have. It's not like med school, where you have to have like certain classes like physics and organic chemistry. Applying to law school, there's no specific major you have to have. Like I am biology, chemistry, Lacey's journalism. There is a rock, like whatever major you want to do, do it. I mean, like, that doesn't matter. But then you apply to law school, and law school is three years.
And once you graduate law school, you have to take here in South Carolina, the bar, which is a multi day test to pretty much test you on everything. So when you graduate, you're technically an attorney because you went to law school, you graduated, but you can't practice here until you pass the bar. And in doing the bar, we had to do some background checks. We also had to take an ethics exam before you could practice as well, which is separate from the bar. And we have to take, once you even pass to become an Attorney. We have to continue to take education, so it's continuing legal education for pretty much the rest of our careers.
Different states have a few different rules, but overall, for the most part, you got to go to law school, you gotta pass a bar exam. I think only one or two states have gotten rid of a bar exam. And then you have to continue your education the rest of your life, pretty much to make sure you're staying up to date on laws and that type stuff. But pretty much anybody with any type degree can apply to law school, but it's not a fun process, so make sure you want to do it before you go into it.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And you do have to take what's called the LSATs, a standardized test, before you apply to law school as well. So that's one more part of it. I know many of us watch the Kardashians and have seen Kim Kardashian trying to become an attorney, and it's more of like an apprenticeship style along with taking classes. But she's not like, formally in law school, and I don't even know that she's got her undergrad. But we do not have that here in South Carolina, and most states do not have that anymore. That's an older system that states used to have, but yeah, that's not. You can't do that here.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: And also, like, we do not come out specialized in any area of law. We all take the same classes. And it's really our practice areas that we learn with cl, with our continuing legal ed. And what we go, we learn from other attorneys when we come out. Now, there are a few things, like, if you want to become what's known as, like, we can't say we specialize in anything unless we truly are specialized, which means taking extra classes, doing a test with the bar, where you become specialized, and there are things after you graduate law school. So, like, one thing I'm considering possibly for me in the future is getting my LLM, which is a master's in tax law. So that way I have a little extra extra that really has taught me how to deal with tax, like with estate planning and estate taxes and business law. That's something I've debated having. So you can do stuff after law school if you want to be specialized, but when we come out, we really can practice in any area of law. And you learn on the job.
[00:04:59] Speaker A: Yep, pretty much.
So with that, switching gears to a topic I'm very excited about, because, like Lauren said, I am a journalism major. So the First Amendment mix, it mixes both of my degrees together. And actually, when I first started going to law school, I wanted to be.
To do some type of media law. That was definitely where my passion was at, and I took courses to be that. But I didn't find a job at media law out of law school. I ended up in criminal defense, and I loved it, and I can't imagine doing anything else. But, you know, I do occasionally have the First Amendment come up in my cases as well.
So let's start with the First Amendment. Do you remember what it says, Lauren?
[00:05:48] Speaker B: I know the First Amendment is our freedom amendment, which we get. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, free to assemble.
But it is not.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech. So that the. The important part is they cannot make laws. And what that means is you cannot be arrested for speech. There's exceptions. But, you know, Lauren, you're talking about Duck Dynasty, and that's significantly different. The First Amendment doesn't protect you from getting fired from your job.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: So, yeah, kind of like back when we were. I think we were either our last year law school or recently graduated law school, one of the people on Duck Dynasty was fired or they ended the show because of something they said.
And this was, you know, before everybody was on, pretty much. People were on Facebook and Twitter at the time. That was like the two big outlets for social media. And people were like, oh, my gosh, it's taking away his freedom of speech. His rights are being.
And like, no, they're not. You are allowed to do what? I mean, like, as a company, he said something that went against the company values, and they fired him. And like that. I've seen this happen a lot in reality tv. I love reality tv. Love Big Brother. And it was probably maybe two or three years later, There was a contestant on Big Brother. Her name was Aaron. I remember her. And she said racial slurs. Granted, you did not see that on the actual Big Brother that aired on tv. There's this thing called Big Brother After Dark or All Access, where you pretty much watch these people 24 7. And she said racial slurs about some other people in the house. Aaron was a school teacher. Aaron got out of that Big Brother house and had no job. And that was nothing. Was violated her First Amendment rights because she did not go to jail, she did not face any legal penalties. But she said something really nasty, and she deserved a punishment.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. And that made me think of the challenge on mtv. I think her name was Carmela, but she said some racial slurs to Leroy and they kicked her off the show as well. So, you know, I remember people like, during the. Phil Robertson, I think, is who it was of Duck Dynasty, and people were saying that. I'm like, no, your. Your speech has consequences. The only thing the First Amendment protects you from is being arrested for it. But you have consequences of what you say. And even to this day, I mean, there are certain things that if I see my staff say online, I will fire them. One of them being the R word that is reappearing a lot on social media that does not align with my company's beliefs and policies. And if any of my employees post that word and using it and not advocating against it, they will not have a job. I will educate first, of course. But if they continue to use it because they want to, not like a slip, like, oh, my God, I'm sorry. As long as they acknowledge that that's not an okay word to use, like, that's fine. But if they are consciously using it and promoting it, they are not going to work for my company because that is not what I want portrayed for my business.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Right. And I think so many times people do not think about what they put on social media or what they put out there having an impact on their job. But no, like, if you get on social media and write, my boss sucks, obviously you're not gonna have a job because somebody's gonna tattle and snitch and tell your boss. I think the First Amendment, that we see it in that ways. People think their freedom of speech is because there's consequences. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences in the private actions. Freedom of speech also protects some things that I don't want it to protect, but it does. Like when you. Like, I remember being on campus at usc, and I am a religious person. I am pretty devout in my religious beliefs, but I did not. Like, there was this guy that would just be religious hate, pretty much.
He was up there. He would say really mean things about people in the LGBTQ community. He would say really mean things about just a lot of people, and I did not like it. I don't think that portrayed religion accurately. I do not think we're supposed to be full of hate, but full of love for people. And. But his. That was freedom of speech protected him from saying those things. Granted, I would walk away. I wouldn't listen. I would go do other things. What was. Like, I went to the Sugar Land concert years ago, and Sugar Land is a big advocate for the LGBTQ community and the Westboro Baptist Church. People were out there picketing it. I just walked right past them and went on into my concert. But they had the right to do that because that's. The freedom of speech protects that as well. But there are some limitations to it that I think people don't realize. So, like, I don't want to get very political in this, but there's all this stuff about, you know, like, drag queens reading in libraries and stuff like that. So when we're looking at places like, with a government entity which would be like a library, a lot of times if they let one side come in, they have to let the other side come in. So if they came and had a Trump rally, then they would have to let common rally happen, because you can say there's going to be no events, no political events here, and that's okay. But once you let one side in, the other side has to come to. Which is why, like, at colleges, like this was on an episode of the Sex Lives of College Girls. It's a private institution on the show, but they had, like, a really. It's a more liberal school, and they had a really conservative person and people were protesting. But like, at USA and Clemson, in these state schools, if you're going to let a right wing come in, you have to let a left wing come in. You have to allow neutrality.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, going kind of back, I have had cases where people have been arrested for their speech, and in some of those cases, it was not protected speech. So I kind of want to talk a little bit about that. And then I have had cases where it was protected speech and it did get dismissed. So. And there's a lot of case law, too, with it as far as what is protected or not. So just. So hate speech is not protected. So if you get to the level where it could, like a riot or something could arise, that level of hate speech, you can be arrested for disturbing the peace or something like that.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: That is not like, it inflames the, like, regular person kind of thing. It was like, would inflame a regular person. It's like hate speech at that point.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: So, for example, the word bitch, let's like, let's use that. So in case law, a guy directed that term at a person, like, said it to them, they were arrested, and they said that that speech wasn't protected because it was directed at that person. I think there was more to it, but that was one of the words. But there's another case where somebody just set it out and open, like, not directed at a person, and that was protected speech. So I could tell you context matters. Also, the most protected speech is political speech. And police, their standard is higher. So you are protected in cussing out an officer. I don't advise it because I have had clients arrested for it. And yes, it did get dismissed, but they still went to jail. So don't advise it. But saying F you to the police is protected speech in her case law.
And they are held, like I said, to a higher standard than me or Lauren would, being not being a state employee, essentially working for the government. So that that's what they're looking at. So speech directed to criticize public officials, people we voted for, president, vice president, that is the most protected speech as far as what is under the First Amendment. But you can't yell fire in a movie theater. That's not protected speech. That incites chaos and stuff like that. So there is a line, not all speech is protected. There are things that you can say, there are exceptions to the First Amendment that you can be arrested for legally.
[00:14:33] Speaker B: Well, like child pornography is part. Like pornography in itself is part of freedom of speech. Because speech just isn't just verbal. It is acts, it is art, it is those type things. So to be freedom of speech, it has to have an artistic value. So pornography in itself is protected speech for the most part if it is too consenting or however many consenting adults taking part of it. But like when we get into child pornography, that's not protected speech. That is illegal because there is no art for it. There is no justification for it.
And like flag burning, completely protected speech. It is a political stance. You're burning the flag because you want to. And I think another thing kind of on the civil side of things with the protective speech type stuff, is what we talked about with the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard case. And like slander and those type things. Like if I go out and say Lacey is a butthole, like that's my opinion, that's okay. But if I say Lacey is a lawyer who does not follow the rules of ethics because she did abcd, that's slander. Because that's unless, like, you know, it is true, which it is not, but like that. So I think we have to think about things like what's opinion, what's versus what are you trying to display as facts? And I think like the instance you said, if you go up to a police officer, police officer, and say F you like, you're allowed to do that. But does that come with a threat where it could be assault to where they're scared you're about to cause physical harm. So sometimes it's not the words, but words and actions make the difference too.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And like you said, there's with the slander even aspect. Right. So if you said that about me, I would have a civil lawsuit. But you can't call the police and have me arrested, you know, Or I can't. I can't call the police on you for saying that and have you arrested because what you said is protected speech. But there's other consequences civilly. So it's a good point to make that even though that speech may be protected from having you arrested for saying it, it doesn't protect your pocketbook.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: No. And it doesn't protect your reput. Like, that's the hard part with all this stuff. Like, you can say whatever you want to say for the most part, minus anything that is inflammatory, like fire in the crowded room or causing riots, causing civil unrest or even, you know, anything artistic you can pretty much get away with. But it doesn't always mean this like we've talked about the whole time. The civil side of things is different. The private sector is different. You go out there and burn that flag out of protest that's completely protected, but you have a boss that doesn't see it that way and fires you like it's just free speech.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: The police aren't going to arrest you for burning the flag, but that doesn't mean you're going to still have employment.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: Now do if you're going to go burn this flag, you don't go burn it in a crowded place because then you're arson.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: About what you're doing and what you're saying earlier too, about opinion. In fact, I think that's important to recognize too, in this. So I actually texted you this week and I want to say tell this story. So as you know me, me and Lauren both advocate against the use of the R word. It is a derogatory term for people with special needs and intellectual disabilities.
So like I said, it has amped up people using it. The statistic I think I saw yesterday is since Elon Musk has started using it on X, there has been an increase of over 200% of the use of the R word on X, which is formerly known as Twitter. And so I was on Facebook and I saw a Facebook friend. She was a classmate. I cheered with her. I went to school with her. She's got three kids. They're beautiful. And she had used the R word in sharing a post and she was referring to herself in the past.
And so I went to scroll on, but I was like, you know what? I call out strangers, you know, on. In comments when they use it. This is somebody like, I can't. If I'm gonna call, I should say something to people I know, no matter how awkward. So I commented on it and I was like, hey, the. The R word is a derogatory term towards people with special needs and intellectual disabilities. We're trying really not, you know, it's not good to use that. I know we used to use it growing up. I did too. But I've really learned since having Luke, like, the harm in that word. I would love to share some, you know, educational materials with you if you, you know, would like me to. Now, I have given that same, like, I'm not going to attack you just an educational comment unless I know you're consciously using it. Right? So. So I made that comment. And when I made that comment to a stranger one time, he deleted his post using the word. And I appreciated that. I've said that story on the podcast. Well, I never heard anything. I never got like a notification. So I was like, what happened? So she had a. She had another post pop up and it made me think about it. So I went, she deleted my comment, but kept her post with the R word.
And I was telling my mom and she's like, well, that's your opinion of the word. No, it's not. The word is derogatory. That's fact. That's not opinion. You don't get an opinion on that. It is derogatory. We have people, so many people stating, hey, this is hurtful. We don't use this word anymore. There's other words that are derogatory that we don't use.
F, A, G, G. I ain't going to say it. You know what I'm saying? For people who are gay, that is a derogatory term. That's not opinion. That's fact. The N word, that is a derogatory term. That's fact. That's not opinion.
So with that, I mean, I don't know who her employee employers are, but if I were her employee seeing something like that, I would address it. Educate first. If she still continued to use it, she wouldn't work for my company.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: Well, especially think about all the people like, as business owners, like, the last thing we want to do is ever. As a person, I don't want to be rude and offend people, but as a business owner, on top of it, I don't ever want to offend anybody. I'm not going in my own life. I'm not going to say anything derogatory about like, I will not say the N word. I will not say the effort. I will not say the R word. I mean, there are things I say that could lose me clients as a business owner. Like, I hate Clemson. Go Gamecocks or. But like, I'm not going to do that on my business page because there are things you just don't do because you want to make sure as a business owner, we show kind of like those type things. I think when we think about business stuff and like, we think about being moms in business, we had to be extra careful on our own social medias, on our own posts to make sure that, you know, we know not to use those really bad things because that's just messed up to use those words. But like, even things that maybe aren't offensive could offend somebody or just not. Not have them on your side as a business owner. So we've got. Everybody has to be really careful. And once you put on the Internet, it's there.
[00:22:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And also circling back and probably wrapping this up. Let's. Let's think about this as a mom, you know, like I said, this person has three kids. I would not let my kids hang out with her because the fact that she deleted my comment and ha. And kept the R word up, I know that she's using it right. And I know she's not teaching her children not to use it. I would not have my children around her. So, sure, there are other consequences. I would not let my children around her. If anybody asked, hey, my kids are having a play date, you know, with this person's children. What's your opinion? I would say, oh, I will never let my kids hang out with her children. I would not want them around. So even your speech has that kind of connotation right there. You know, there are certain things that you're okay saying and you're promoting. That tells me your kids are doing it too. And I'm protecting my kids from that. So your speech can even go as far as. Because you're teaching your kids that it's okay when you say certain things.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: And I feel like children are naturally curious, but they're not naturally born to hate other children. Like, you know, there was one time a man that was like my doordash or chick fil a or whatever, driver, and he was an amputee. He had only one leg. So Kylie asked, why does she said why he only got One leg. Because she's only a little this. But in no way was she being mean about him. She just wanted to know a question. And once I told her, you know, that's just how he is, and it's fine, she was cool with it. So, like, kids are a lot more.
They're less hateful than us as adults.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: Brooklyn's my niece, she's 10 months older than Luke. And one time she said, aunt Lacy, why Luke not talk yet? And I remember they were in the bath and I said, oh, because he has down syndrome, so it takes him longer to do things and learn how to do things. So he's learning to talk, which is why he says some words, but that's why he's not talking like you are yet. And she said, okay, that was it. She just wanted an answer, right? And, you know, I know my. One of my nieces has used the. The R word one time and we had a discussion on why we don't use it, and she's like, oh, I'm so sorry, Aunt Lacey. I. And it was a learning moment for them and a teachable moment for them. And I know that if they do use it as a slip up, it's not something they're using in their everyday terms and that's what is important. But yeah, there's all kinds of teachable moments with kids.
And like you said, especially teaching them about disabilities and differences, using the R word is not how we. How we teach those things and teach people to embrace others differently.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: Now, don't think my children want to offend you, though, because they will come up and pack my belly and go, why, you got a tummy? Or they will look at my dad and be like, why are you bald headed? So, I mean, they don't mean to. They just have questions. But I will say, like, kind of. I guess my last point on all this. First a minute. We all know it's not freedom from consequences now, but I will say I think the world is becoming more aware of this because I was watching Love is Blind and, you know, they're talking in the pods and all this stuff. I'm catching up on it. So everybody else is probably saying everything, but they have became a lot more conscious about what they say to each other. I have noticed because one girl asked the other guy, how does he feel about Black Lives Matter? And he was very.
He pretty much says, I'm not political. I don't think about anything like. But it was very thought out how he answered it. Because I think in today's time we have realized, you know, like, what you say does not mean you're not going to lose something by saying it.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's certain things, you know, morals and values is it's worth sticking up for in saying something. But, you know, I think this is a good thing to learn that the consequences may not be arrest, but that's the only thing the First Amendment protects you from. But I love this stuff. And like I said, I am a journalism major, so if y'all have questions on what is protected speech and what's not, as far as arrest goes, as far as what Congress can't make laws against, definitely reach out to us. Let us know your your thoughts and questions. And yeah, my biggest thing is I don't know if I should say Facebook friends with this person or not. So if y'all got an opinion on that, let me know.
But for now, I've just been scrolling.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: On and I do want to add because this episode will come out before we do our book club episode, make sure you go read the book Framed. And I was trying to, like, pull a picture of it up to show y'all, but it's too tiny on my phone. But I think Wendy can add it for us somewhere. But framed by.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: John Gresham and Jim Grisham.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: And there's another. And he actually works for, like, the Freedom. Not Freedom. He works for some, like, group that.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: Helps Centurion is what he's. It's similar to the Innocence Project.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Yes. And it's firsthand stories from cases. And it's a good read. It is quick to read. Like it's not. It is a 350 page book, but it's broken down into individual stories.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: So it's 10 stories of 10 exonerees.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: So it's not hard to sit down and read a story every now and then. But do read that because we want your opinions when we get to talking about it. And we'd love to have some comments from y'all.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Yep. All right. Well, I'll see you next week, Lauren.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Bye. Remember to follow us.
