Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Hey everybody, it's Lacey and I'm Lauren
[00:00:08] Speaker A: and welcome to another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: And today we are going to talk about hopefully parents being charged when their kids have gun and and do things, bad things I'm guessing with the guns.
So that's going to be our topic for today.
But I think Lacey has a question and some other stuff before we get started.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: I do.
So my first question is. So Lindsay Clancy is still going on the update is. There's really not an update. The jury came back once and said they're deadlocked after like three days. Which me and Lauren, three full days
[00:00:47] Speaker B: though because this judge takes way shorter days than I have ever talking about. We gonna go home at 3 o'. Clock.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: This is true.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: My judge would never. When I clerk we was there.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: I feel better if I say 2 ish days. Is that better?
[00:01:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Time wise. Yes, 3 ish. Just for FYI for about there we are recording this on Wednesday the 2nd so I mean when this comes out on Friday just this was recorded pre Friday.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: We could have a decision. We could have a hung jury. We don't know. So. So somebody post this question to me and I'm going to pose you my answer and I want your thoughts. Someone said if this ended up in a mistrial, what do you think the prosecution could offer?
And in my opinion, taking in consideration how I feel, my friends feel how you feel, which is the same as Kayla.
I would propose what I what I would call a super sweet deal that I would advise her to take if offered is some type of manslaughter. Something that's not premeditated in the moment. Killing every state's different. So something of that nature.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: It's manslaughter there.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: That's what was okay with 15 to 20 range in my thinking of that as a female is that puts her outside of the ability to have children by the time she got out of prison.
Could you live with that Lauren? Or like no try her again or just what are your. Your thoughts? If you heard this is what they. They offered. If this ended in a mistrial,
[00:02:26] Speaker B: we're sitting right here. I think it's going to end in a mistrial and I think it's because they I honestly don't think it's nobody's. I don't think it's Lena not guilty. I think the issue is issued not guilty by reason of insanity. There's too many choices on the form. You got not get guilty by reason of insanity. You got manslaughter. And then you got premeditated. So I think there's so much going on and there's. They have to make this decision for each child.
So we're not just making it one decision. Each child gets their own. And you could think that, okay, it's this for this person, but because she killed them when she went to the next one, it was premeditated. So I will say the jury has a complex sheet. And this is the thing you want your juries to have as easy as possible as making a decision.
And this is where jury charges and jury instructions play so much into it.
Ultimately, the judge allowed this to be the jury sheet. Neither attorney did this. This was. They made motions. And the judge ultimately decided based on what all the attorneys said the defense did want to get that manslaughter charge. And I think their reasoning was because it was going to confuse the jury because you're adding another charge. It's just harder. Know if you got two choices, it's easier. You get four. It's hard. Yeah. So I think right now, I think the issue is where is she lie on those three? I don't think not guilty is anywhere. So I don't think, you know, and honestly, to me, if I was the prosecution, I know what I did wrong this case.
I know people want to see me present more because there's I all this stuff about. And I don't know what the jury feels. So that's going to be interesting if the judge pulled the jury and we see that, which also. I don't know if this is going to result in some type of mistrial because of the crap that happened yesterday where that woman was harassing members of the jury and she got arrested.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: I heard about that.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: I don't know how that's going to play into all this. And the ju. And the judge did have each member come in and border them and to see if this was going to impact them. But I think realistically, if I'm the prosecution, this gives me a better idea of how to strategize my case and put up certain evidence and maybe get a new expert, because our experts weren't likable on the prosecution side kind of thing. So I don't know. I.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Could you live with that, though? Could you be like, all right, I'm. It's not
[00:04:58] Speaker B: because of postpartum. If she's truly bipolar, if we didn't and she doesn't take her medicine, who's to say she wouldn't flip out again? And this is the thing about bipolar diagnosis A lot of times that is like not diagnosed till 20s and 30s. And then when you hit menopause. So us women get all the lucky things in life. When you hit menopause, it can amplify those feelings because of the hormonal imbalance. So I give her 20 years. She's coming out in perimenopause and she's already angry because we're coming out in perimenopause. Like, I. I truly don't know. I want to know what actually is wrong with her. I guess to be able to give you an honest decision. And we're never going to know that. I truly don't think she had postpartum psychosis. I have said from the time I think she's bipolar and not that postpartum and hormones didn't play a part of it, but I think she was misdiagnosed in what she is.
It wasn't anxiety and depression is bipolar. But I will say in bipolar people, they are more likely to have postpartum depression.
[00:05:57] Speaker A: So what would you offer? What would you be okay offering? Would it have to be murder or.
Absolutely not. Not. No offer. She just plead guilty straight up to three murders in front of a judge. Is there anything and like, any type of offer the solicitor could give that you could live with?
[00:06:17] Speaker B: I don't know. I truly don't. Because in my opinion, like, jail's not just. I get. Jail is punishment in some ways. That is the point of it. In some ways. In some ways is to rehabilitate you.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: And she deserves punishment. I'm sorry, I don't.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: This is going to be punishment. Yeah. If she goes to prison, any, any chance is going to be to punishment. I don't think it's for rehabilitation.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: But here's the thing. Like, this is the hard part I have in all of this, and I don't know how to say it the nicest way. Mental health is a real issue,
[00:06:53] Speaker A: but
[00:06:53] Speaker B: when you don't take your medicines, you're still a threat to the public.
And that's where I have the issue. Like, do I feel sorry if she's truly struggling with mental health? Yes. But can we make her not a threat to the public?
And here's the thing. Depending on what's wrong with her, and we don't know, she could go into a mental health institution and the doctors clear and she'd be out and be like that other woman who came out and murdered three other kids, like.
[00:07:18] Speaker A: And that's why I like a period of time that's two decades like 20 years. And that's why I said that. And what I would offer is because that's still, that's a substantial sentence.
Like I said, it would put her in her 50s. I could maybe even go up to 25.
But with the potential of retrying the case, a mistrial if that ends, I, I could live with that. 20ish years.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: Do you think her attorney would take that realistically?
[00:07:49] Speaker A: If I was her attorney and she got an offer of 20 years on that, I would say take it and run. You're just going to deal with it, like, do it, don't risk a trial. Absolutely.
I don't know what her attorney, I mean, from his remarks to the public, I don't think he would. But as to the public and what
[00:08:07] Speaker B: he tells her behind closed doors is two very different things. Like, yeah, I will say I think she deserves some type of punishment. And I would like to see. And this is the hard part. You really can't mandate people in certain, like, sentences. You can, you know, she's in prison, she, they can make sure she tries to take her medicine. I mean, they can help her and you can see if she's taking it, what's going on, that type stuff. I mean, I do feel sorry for if she truly is bipolar because she doesn't mean to be that way. But at the same point there are consequences. I mean, every, and this is the thing to me, every person that does something wrong does have a reason for doing something wrong and it's not usually the same logical reason. And, well, this is the thing. So, like serial killers, there's a lot of evidence out there that there is a gene that causes you to be a serial killer. They're still going to go to jail, even though technically, maybe it's not their own fault, it's their body telling them to do that, but they're a danger to society. So I think, you know, there is a balance in that. I will say, though, I would like for everybody to watch the documentary on Netflix because it really deals with mental health and how it went a different way and she committed suicide. Is the. The Preacher's Wife.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: We gotta save that for another episode. We will.
[00:09:32] Speaker B: Let's throw that out there. That went to high school with JP's son, the one that also is in a lot of trouble and his sister went to my, my law clerks from Myrtle Beach. I can see if he'll talk about it. He probably won't because I don't think he listens. But maybe we could get him to come on and actually know some of these people because his sister went to high school with Micah.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: So my friend Ashley was a waitress with Micah's sister.
I, I. Everybody's asked me, do I know Regina? I do not. Well, I mean, I don't know that she's the attorney.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: Was that the attorney?
[00:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: She's family law, though, right?
[00:10:10] Speaker A: She does a little bit of everything. She's done a will for somebody. I know family. And then they. We were intertwined on a criminal matter. One time she had to go talk
[00:10:20] Speaker B: to Barbara Seymour or an ethics attorney before being on this documentary. Because me as the lawyer is thinking, you breaking privilege.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: I doubt we're gonna get to our topic today.
So let's save it. Let's save it. Can we save it for another episode? Because it. You also are not supposed to record phone calls as a lawyer. That's an ethics violation too. And she did that. So let's save this.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: Okay, okay. We'll talk about her too. Like, not in a bad way. Just because Mark has a connection to
[00:10:48] Speaker A: somebody in it too. So we'll, We'll. But. But yes, go watch it. Let's go and say yes. Mental health matters.
Go watch the Micah Miller. And we'll probably do it next week. I think we could do it next week. It's pretty, pretty fresh.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: I think that would be a great one. Because right now the Internet is on fire about it. And literally the second I turned it off, I'm texting air and I'm like, have you watch this? Yeah. And she's like, of course.
[00:11:11] Speaker A: So before we move to our topic real fast, I have to tell you how Griffy saved me thousands of dollars last night.
So we got ready for bed. We went to bed early. We bring Griffy up. He's the only one that sleeps in our bed. Our chocolate lab that I did not think was as smart as he actually is.
So we're trying to go to sleep. Let her lay down. He had just gotten in. Like, he just came inside. He had just gone out to use the bathroom one last time. He just came inside. He wouldn't settle. He kept going in Max room, bumping the door open. Matt kept fussing. We're like, what are you doing? Pace it. He went to the boys bathroom. I'm like, what are you doing? Come lay down. Then he went to our bathroom and lay down. I was like, okay, maybe he's hot and the tile is cool. But then he was back up again. Mark tried to, like, like, get in the bed. Like, we're Going to sleep. It's 8 o'. Clock. Like, come on. So Mark was trying to hold him down. He would not lay down. I'm like, fine. I got so mad because I just brought him inside. I said, I guess he's got to go to the bathroom again. So I sling the blanket off, go downstairs. He shoots off to the bathroom in our, our guest suite. I'm like, what are you doing?
[00:12:15] Speaker B: Get outside.
[00:12:16] Speaker A: So I get him outside and as I'm walking back there's, there's.
I thought pee. It was water. I thought he had peed in our downstairs bathroom. It had completely flooded. We had a clogged pipe.
So our bathroom was starting to flood. I yell for Mark, there's three inches of water in our bathtub. There's water seeping out of the toilet. The floor is covered in water.
Then Mark goes and checks the other downstairs bathroom. It is flooded. And at some point he, he's trying to find the key to turn the water off and it starts gushing out. Within 60 seconds our entire hall is.
[00:12:56] Speaker B: That's like what happened in our office when the pipe burst. It went nothing to just.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it, it happened so fast. I.
So anyways we got it fixed. Thankfully, thanks to Griffy, it was contained to the bathrooms. Everything on tile. Nothing was damaged. We had actually soaked up everything by the time the plumber got there to fix it last night. He got done a lofter 10. I gotta go home and mop a little today and just, you know, clean the bathrooms. But I said if Griffey had not been like that, we would have slept and our entire downstairs would have flooded. Like with how fast the hall happened.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: That was quick.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And our plumber said that's typically what happens. Usually once it floods downstairs it goes upstairs and that's when they wake somebody up and when he's called in, everything's down damaged.
So Griffy is the bestest boy and he got treats last night, he got treats today and I'm just going to love him a little extra because he saved our house last night. Literally.
I swear he knew something.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: He did. And well cuz you know like dogs, like service dogs that like when people have diabetes and stuff they can smell like sugar changes. They can help when people are about to have a seizure. It is like amazing what like dogs can do for us. They are way better than us in every single way.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Unless you're a cat. I'm not fond of cats right now because our office cat puked on my desk today as I was eating A Cheeto. I look over and he is puking orange like said Cheeto.
[00:14:28] Speaker A: Well, good luck with that. I don't like cats very much. But anyway, so moving to our topic. I don't know if this is happening in more places than Richland. I will tell you, Richland has a lot of issues right now with guns, especially guns amongst Brazil, our youth.
So for example my friend Corey, him and his wife, well he has a child with a former relationship, former girlfriend and so she's in middle school. There were, there was a gun found at the middle school and a knife that happened last week.
And in Richland there are a lot of arrests we see with guns and juveniles. And Leon lot announced several months ago he is going to start charging the the parents. So there's been different circumstances. I have seen a 17, 18 year old charged with having a gun or whatever it is and they charge the parent. I've seen there was a kid that took one in elementary school and they charged the parent. And so I just kind of want to get your thoughts on charging. For me, I think it's circumstantial.
I think it looks really bad if your elementary school has a gun in their backpack.
[00:15:44] Speaker B: I agree. I think it's a.
Well here's the thing. A 17 year old, you're not watching all the time. Like I drove my own car, I went to school. Like I didn't do anything bad because that's just me. I'm a goody goody. It is what it is. But like if I had wanted to, I had plenty of opportunities to do stuff. So I feel like at 16, maybe, like, maybe that's like the age like the more independent you are because your parents aren't going to watch you all the time. And I don't think they're supposed to because at 18 you're supposed to be legally an adult. So I think there's some time in there where the parents have to pull off and let you become more of an adult. But yes, if you are 8 years old and showing up with a gun, that gun should have been locked up in your house where you could not access it.
[00:16:31] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's kind of how I am like, like he's on this like rampage to just you know, charge all these parents. And I just, I just think in some of the situations it's not warranted.
Like, let me see,
[00:16:49] Speaker B: it's just hard because you can be the best parent in the world and like you can't always control it. Like I don't think most parents are condoning, you know, teenagers having certain relations that end up in pregnancy but they don't, they can't stop them.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: I mean. Right.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: It's kind of like the same point if you want to get a gun and you're 16, 17.
Yeah, you're probably going to get a gun.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: Right? So this is one. And this is one. I, I do agree with charging. This is where a six year old was found with a loaded gun on a school bus.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: For sure. Six years old, you should never, it should have been locked up.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: I go through my kids backpacks every evening, every morning I'm going through them again because I packed their lunch and stuff. And even if you're not packing their lunch, like is it somewhere, somebody there to make sure, like they get to the bus now let's say the, that there's evidence video like where they get to the bus stop and another kid hands them the gun.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: Okay.
But like if you got, if it is your mom or dad's gun and you have access to it and yes, my kids don't. They eat school lunch because they have a, their cafeteria is probably better than like most restaurants.
It's good school lunch and it's healthy foods. So they eat school lunch. But I still go and I make them water bottles and I put it in their book bag. I check to see what got sent home. Like and yes, in the morning I make sure there's not ten hundred dumplings in a book bag because we got to take them all to school. So I feel like, and I will probably do that all through, up through middle school is check their bag because I know I'm going to have to sign homework and my kids get home and forget everything that happened that day. So checking their bags is how I get stuff from the teacher.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Right.
So like I said, this is the newest one and from what I've seen, the dad said like they found the gun and he said for her to throw it out and then she just never did. So that's irresponsible. I agree with that. But I'm just with you, I just think 16 is like what I mean, I, I mean I get that he wants to get guns off the street and it's bad. There's so many shootings.
One point, I kid you not. I called Caroline because we were retained on, I don't even know it was one of the shootings, but there were so many shootings. Caroline thought it was one shooting. When I was like, no, it's this shooting because she, there's so many shootings that weekend or week. She didn't even know which one we were retained on.
So I understand it's bad, but what, what are parents supposed to do when these kids, like you said, are driving their own vehicles, they have their own friends, perhaps their own jobs, you know,
[00:19:27] Speaker B: they are, they are money, they're get,
[00:19:29] Speaker A: yeah, they're, they're getting close to that point of 18 years and, and what are you going to do if somebody is, let's say 17 and 11 months and they get a gun off the streets by it and they're involved in a shooting? You're really going to charge a parent when they're like 20 days shy of 18 year old?
[00:19:46] Speaker B: This already moved out because like say they have. So like my birthday's in July, So I was 18 by the time I went to college. But like Ran and Rachel don't turn 8, they wouldn't turned 18 until September.
So say Ran is in college, moved away from his mama, but he's still 17. You going to charge the mama then when you don't even live at home because he just has a late birthday but he's already really an adult?
[00:20:13] Speaker A: Well, my oldest niece Addison, she graduated at 17, she started college at 17.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: A lot of people do. He graduated a year early and we had two classmates I know of at least that graduated a year early as well.
So I mean I just think it has to be a case by case basis and I don't always agree with the case by case that I see in the news because I have seen a mom where she was charged when her 17 year old had a gun. I've seen 16, I've seen that upper age range being charged a few times and I just don't agree with that.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: If you have like joint cut like for divorced parents. Oh yeah.
How is that gonna play out? Like are we just gonna charge the custodial parent? Are we gonn charge the other parent their joint?
I mean like this book, this gun could have been in the book bag for a week like when it went back and forth like I think. And that's really hard to like obviously if you're like a six year old, they know where you are at all times or they should or they're negligent parents. But when you're 16 and you got mom and dad living in different houses and you're going between the two and at that point, usually when you're 16, 17, you don't even always abide by the family court orders because you're an adult, almost an adult, and you're like, oh, well, I'm tired. I'm just going to say it, dad tonight because I don't want to pack my stuff up to go back to Mom's, like, so how are you going to charge then?
[00:21:36] Speaker A: And what about this scenario? So we in South Carolina, hunting is pretty big.
You know, what if your kid is 17, they go out hunting, they go to school, forget it's in their car.
Are you going to charge the parents for that? Because they're going to be charged for having a gun on school property. Sure. And there's programs they should go to to get that dismissed and learn not to do that because anybody could get in that car and access that gun. So we don't want that.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: But that's really common though in the south because a lot of agree with hunting. I think it's terrible. A lot of high school boys do go hunting with their families. Like, it's not like they're doing something mom and dad doesn't know about. They're probably out there with dad half the time.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: And I accident. I think that's where gun safety comes into play so much. Because I think sometimes when you hunt, maybe you don't always go through because you expect your child to know gun safety because you've taught them that learning. But you don't go through all the things like, yeah, they know not to pretend it. They all know is always not supposed to be thought of as loaded and that stuff. But maybe they don't think about, I need to make sure I always bring it in, I need to lock it up. Like maybe that type safety needs to be installed. Like maybe there needs to be some of those requirements when you get a hunting license too to make sure like you understand that. I don't know. I don't like hunting, so I don't care. But.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: Right. I don't like guns.
I don't like guns.
And I yell at a lot of people at the jail, young, young people when they get charged with guns, issue
[00:23:09] Speaker B: with people owning guns if they properly know how to like. I will be honest and tell you I had a paral that kept a gun on her when she worked here. And especially when she's by herself. She had her cwp, her husband was a cop. She knew safety. It bothered me. Not whatsoever because she was smart. So I like, that's. I don't have issues if it's responsible because honestly, the last thing I want is some crazy person to come up in here and kill her. So like, yeah, that never bothered me now, just so everybody knows, my current par. My current downstairs, Angie, I don't think she's packing a gun. So please don't come.
I wouldn't trust her because she'd probably drop it. I love her. I love her.
[00:23:49] Speaker A: I.
I get really uncomfortable around. I mean, even seeing the cops with. I know they got. I don't. It makes me feel weird. But no question, I'm not saying they shouldn't have them. Let me just. There is a separation between my personal feelings and what I think should be legally done.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: Now, when you go to, like, probation violation or parole hearings, did they let the parole and probation officers have guns in your courtroom?
[00:24:17] Speaker A: I don't think so. I think they have the Tasers.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: That's. So that was one thing when we clerk. When I clerked, it was the judges up here wouldn't let them. The only people that could have guns in the courtroom were the deputies who not. I know that, like, a probation officer has went through the training, but they were not allowed to have the guns in the courtroom because the judges here. And I don't know, I haven't, you know, been to those in a long time, did not want it to be where anybody could access a gun.
[00:24:46] Speaker A: Agreed.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: Just having them here and what if somebody you're, like, there and you're going to prison for life?
So we had really strict laws on who could even have them inside of the courthouse, which I think is necessary.
[00:24:59] Speaker A: I absolutely agree.
So, yeah, let us know your thoughts.
I think me and Lauren are kind of on the same page with the charging of the parents. I think we all think it's case by case and very dependent on. On age.
But for next,
[00:25:19] Speaker B: go watch that documentary. And honestly, it's three parts. I think they're about 40 minutes each.
Honestly, I watched it all Sunday. I told my husband I was going to take a nap and I snuck upstairs and watched tv.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: I love it.
Me and Mark watched it together. We binged it. We're like, oh, let's start it now before dinner. And then we were hooked. So we had to watch the second episode while we ate dinner. And then once the kids went to bed, we finished the third one before bed.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: Also, if anybody is doing a True Blood re watch. I'm currently doing that. So message me because I have more thoughts, like the fourth or fifth time around.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, don't message me. But anyway, so watch Micah Miller, Death of Appraiser's Wife on Netflix. Everybody's talking about it. We are going to hit the ethical issues, potential ethical issues from the documentary perspective, Micah's Law. Talk about that and our thoughts on that. So we will see y' all next week. Sweet.
