Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
It's Lacy.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: And I'm Lauren, and welcome to another
[00:00:09] Speaker A: episode of the Llamas Podcast.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: And this is a special episode for us today because today we hit 100 episodes. So that's a pretty big deal for us.
[00:00:22] Speaker A: I especially being business owners, lawyers, and mom of two, like, I'm really proud of us. I mean, I kind of. When we started it, I don't know if I thought we would get here.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: No. And we actually do have listeners. Like, I mean, maybe we don't. You know, we're not famous, but I have a. We have a steady stream of listeners.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Paige listens. Sean listens. Sean listens every Friday at his job, and he looks forward to it.
And he even will come and tell me things I need to talk about, which I appreciate, like, you know, giving advice on topics.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Aaron does that too. And she said, yeah, last week because she had watched the one where we talked about Christina pike and how we had different views. And then she said the video of me popped up, and she said, oh, God, are they splitting up?
I was like, no. Lacey was at a conference and it was busy, but she saw me pop up and she's like, I had to watch it right away to make sure you weren't splitting up. I was like, I would tell you first, but no, but I guess opinions on other things.
I guess that was the bigger one. But. So since this is our hundredth episode, tell me, Lacey, what has been our favorite discussion we've done for you?
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Honestly, I think what has meant the most to me is in times where it's been really hard with Luke having you to give me advice, and I hope that that same advice has touched other people in my shoes.
So the conversations I've had about just being a special needs mom and getting your perspective, because you have. You may not be a special needs mom, but you have kids my age. So I think you could just kind of give a full picture opinion or just to listen to me. And I think some of those discussions can resonate with other people as moms.
So that's been one of my favorite conversations. And then as far as thing, I.
I like our series on true crime. We talk about a lot of true crime stuff, so that's my favorite. So we talked about Eileen Warnos. That's. I mean, we know she's my favorite serial killer, so, you know, that was probably one of my favorite topics.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: I think one of my favorites was, because this got brought up at my book club, was Homicide for the Holidays and how we brought murder and mayhem into Christmas. So I really enjoyed that because there were some stories there that I felt didn't have national attention. And some like, I love talking about the big things in pop culture, but I also like finding, like, the obscure scarecases. Not everybody's out, but with big things going on. Here's our Christina pike update. So the last time we talked,
[00:03:14] Speaker A: had
[00:03:15] Speaker B: she been given the death penalty or not?
She, like, had it been.
[00:03:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: So the last time we recorded was when they botched it and we went into. Was that cruel, unusual, but we had no idea how she was going to be. So at this point, we know she has returned to jail.
Mentally, we don't know her full mental state, like, if there was any damage. But she's up, She's. I mean, coherent. Her arms are very bruised.
And so just everybody knows this is.
I have not. They supposedly have released some of the information from the botched execution, but I have not listened to that. I don't know if it's fully available, but I guess what got me in all of this. Okay, so, like, we hear from her attorneys, she's on ventilator, she's brain dead.
And that they're saying they're going to have to pull her off. Like, she has a health care proxy, which everyone needs. Whether you're a jailer, regular person, you need that health care proxy to make the decision on if they were going to remove the life support or not. So that was like, Monday they said that, and then Tuesday she's up walking around.
So I'm. I mean, maybe not walking, but she's awake. And I'm not a medical expert by any means.
I don't think watching ER and Grey's Anatomy and the Pit have got me there. But from my understanding, typically if you are declared brain dead, you're not coming back. So I just want to know, like, I wish we could get those records to truly see what was happening. This.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: I know what happened, Lauren.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: It was a miracle. Tell me. The Holy Spirit raised her.
[00:05:00] Speaker A: It was a miracle. God is in control of all. I believe that. And I believe God has a plan for everybody.
And it was a miracle. You. Yeah, medically, that doesn't make sense, but you know what does make sense?
Miracles.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: I mean, I'm just wondering who lied because I feel like in all of this, she wasn't brain dead, but I feel like possibly her attorneys inflated some stuff to get, like.
I don't know, I felt like the attorneys probably went a little over dramatic on it, and she might have been on life support, but I don't think she was ever declared brain dead. So that's where my opinion lies. And. Or it was miracle. No, the devil said, we don't even want you in hell. Go back to earth.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: But there so many people that committed more heinous crimes that I do agree. I mean, you know, so I don't think the devil would interfere like on, on this one that he has.
There's, there's lots of other cases that I believe he, if he was going to interfere on are more appropriate. But I am standing by miracle. And Ava talked to Paige about it biblically and she said, look at Paul, because Paul killed several people and they were Christians and he persecuted them and God used him. So.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: Yeah, but most of the books people say Paul wrote, he actually didn't. So we'll all take that with a grain of salt. I'm just kidding. But no, I'm not kidding about that. He didn't write half the books. But I do wonder, did these attorneys maybe give a little bit of false. I mean, and I'm not saying I did have one client and her husband was declared brain dead and they had told her to remove the life support, but. But she didn't do it. And he actually did regain consciousness later, but he had a very, very long road to recovery after that and needed like rehab and those type things. So I guess just from a medical standpoint, was this truly. Was she brain dead completely or was she just on life support but still had some brain function? Because typically, I mean, if she truly was, that is a miracle of science, that type stuff. And I would love to know if she truly did go brain dead, is she going to us a statement what happened? You know, I love hearing when people say they died and you know, they get to talk to Jesus and those type things. So if that did happen, give us a statement. I need to know. But I just wonder where the attorneys given some fabrication. But as an update, case wise, they did ask for every. They had a motion to get all the like evidence and stuff protected for this botch execution. So.
And the like state argued, we already are protecting it, but some stuff isn't there. It was just a basic, like let's protect the evidence. No, like intentionally so nothing really big, I feel like. But I felt like the defense had to do that because if something was destroyed, this shows that they were under court order not to do it.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: Right.
And one of my cousins reached out, said, you know, what do they do next? And I do not believe they will attempt again. I mean, if you do believe in the death penalty. You also have to believe in the constitution and filing cruel and unusual punishment. So at this point, with everything that's happened medically, I don't know that there is a solid argument to carry out the death penalty while following the constitution of unusual punishment. So, you know, whether you agree or disagree that she should get the death penalty, that's not the question I'm posing here. It is now that they have attempted and everything. I don't think you can get over that hurdle. So just like it will be commuted to a life sentence.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: So like, I don't know what prison she went back to, but I know when you're getting close to execution, they move you to certain prisons because people end up getting attached to you and all that. So I don't know where she went back, if she just went G pop somewhere or special prison. I have no idea on that right now to even know where they're holding her and that type stuff. I do feel like a horrible person though, because I have watched some of the memes about her coming back to prison.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: Oh, I have too. They're funny.
[00:09:15] Speaker B: So I do feel a little horrible about that. On a side note, they are. And then I got. Literally, I have been. Do you know who Matt Matthews is? The gay comedian.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: Who has chickens.
I doom scrolled and watched an hour of his videos the other night.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: I want to say Josh Johnson. He's my favorite comedian right now.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: I don't know, I just enjoyed him because he was calling out everybody and it was hilarious. And he has chickens.
[00:09:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:09:47] Speaker B: But I. I have watched too many tick tocks of things. I feel like I shouldn't because of Christina Pike. But moving on to another terrible human being.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: So this week we are going to talk about a Flynn. Yes.
So sorry, I just got a message from my office.
Hold on.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: You're good. You take care of that.
Caleb Flynn was just convicted a couple weeks ago of killing his wife. Wife of almost like 20 years, mother of his two daughters.
We have talked about him before when he was charged. So if you want to go back to that episode, you can. But he has a South Carolina connection.
He was a music minister at a P.
I think is what it was at a church in the upstate. And so my cousin Paige, she had met him at the gym before and he told her he didn't have a family and she found it weird and looked and actually found out he had a wife and two children.
So. And that was back in like 2017, she said.
And then my her brother, his ex wife, when they were still married, attended the church that he was the music pastor and so, you know, South Carolina connection, but he was having an affair. And I'm just going to go ahead and say I don't believe this is his first affair based on the conversations he had with my cousin at the gym.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Murder for you? First one?
[00:11:26] Speaker A: Probably, probably not. So he had an affair with someone who was much younger. I think he was like 40ish or late 30s, early 40s. She was 20ish when they met at the church and they had a full blown affair. And this was not like. And I don't, I guess I can't say what your standard affair is. I, I don't know. But you know, thank goodness my husband hasn't had one on me and I have not had one on him.
But you know, I, I don't know if it's typical to talk about your wife dying and being dead so you can be with your mistress, but that's what happened here.
Like just hoping that she was dead. He would message her, if I could still go to heaven and kill her, I would kill her. I just don't want to kill her and go to hell.
Him and the mistress got matching tattoos. Eventually, you know, she was like, I can't do this anymore, is, you know, me or your wife. And the night before he killed his wife, he messaged her and said, you know, everything was going to be over by the next day and he was going to finally be free and be able to be with the mistress. And so.
And that night was when his wife was murdered. He claims that there was a home invasion, that he was in his daughter's room and they came in, shot his wife, killed her.
But he was later arrested for the, the crime and convicted a couple weeks ago at the trial. So I did look into the additional evidence. Like, motive was clearly really, really strong in this case. Very strong. I mean, with the text messages, we can talk about his weird songs later if you want. But motive was so strong with the text messages with the mistress. But I wanted to know what other evidence they had. Did you look into that, Lauren?
[00:13:20] Speaker B: No, I really didn't look into much, but obviously this man has not really watched any Dateline or any like, criminal. I mean, I'm not saying if I committed a murder it would go, well, I don't ever plan on committing a murder. But like the fact you put stuff in writing on your cell phone and you don't think that's gonna be discoverable.
Kind of like I Mean, obviously I have the opinion of if my husband would rather be with somebody else than me, just leave me. Like, not that it's obviously a very big deal, but my life is more important.
So don't kill me. We have kids, and even if we didn't, I have dogs. Like, don't kill me. But the fact that if I was going to commit a murder, I'm never going to put the plan in writing on a cell phone, which I think
[00:14:13] Speaker A: with technology it makes it harder to commit the perfect crime. But that's for another day.
There was additional evidence.
So there where the.
Where he claimed the intruder got in the garage, they proved they're able to show that the garage was previously tampered with.
And then also the gun that was used, the gun that killed her is the same type of gun that he owned and he kept in the truck.
Glove box was opened and it wasn't closed back and the gun was not in there. But it does indicate like it was his gun.
And then also they had. Most houses these days have like ring or some type of security cameras on your phones. Like that is very popular today. Well, he had turned all of them off before she was killed. And so. And then also where he says he was in his daughter's room, either his cell phone data or watch data, there was some type of data that showed he was actually moving around the house that night. He was not asleep in his daughter's room.
So I think it probably would have been a harder case to prove without that motive. But that evidence along with the motive, you know, was the state's pretty big case, a solid case with them.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: The fact that he had a mistress and even the fact he kept telling his mistress, I wish my wife would die. Like, I feel like that's enough to like bring something forward there. And obviously the cell phone data and all of that, I don't think he probably realized in south. In most states they have this thing called the slayer statue. And I mentioned it before when talking about like the Menendez brothers and that type stuff, but if you kill someone, you cannot inherit from them. So he actually is like, say he even had got away with a lot of it. But if it came to so you can get away with something criminally. But the probate court has a different standard. Same thing like we talked about with OJ So say he did get away with it. The police couldn't find him guilty. That doesn't mean that the probate court couldn't have found him guilty and he wouldn't have got any of the assets and got even less than in a divorce. So I just, in my head, I guess, I guess, like, I understand, like a lot of times we say divorce is wrong. Like you're not supposed to get divorced from like the biblical standpoint. But I'm pretty sure I know a sin is a sin type thing. But if we're going to get into it, I think it's better to get divorced than kill somebody.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: So I wholeheartedly agree. Overall, I did talk to Paige because Paige said that she's really struggled. She has a lot of sympathy for Caleb and I don't necessarily. She's not one that thinks he shouldn't get this sentence because of the cry. You know, he agrees that he should get life in prison. What her thing is, is like, how did it turn to, to murder? Like, like, what was it in your life that, that made this person who'd never been arrested before his wife? Everything we've heard about her is great things, great mother, you know, went to church, just loved everybody. Like, great wife. We haven't heard anything bad about this person at all. And so, you know, she just feels for him. But in talking about, you know, why not just divorce her, he apparently worked for her dad's company and he did really, really, really well. And apparently dad was getting ready to retire and his retirement plan was to give the company to Caleb and the brother in law. So he was going to go from making, I think she said like 150, $200,000 a year, so six figures to like half a million or more once he inherited his father in law's company. So the thought process then, not good, but was to kill her, you know, make it look like somebody else did it. And if he got away with it, then he would still be able to keep the money he made, he was going to make for his job because otherwise he wouldn't have, he would have had to start over financially.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: Well, I mean, still not a reason
[00:18:27] Speaker A: to kill your wife. But there is also monetary motive.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: I mean, that's over money. If you got. Look, if you tell me, I'm gonna kill you or take all your money. Take all my money. Like, I just, I feel like I, I guess in this, like, be honest, if he hit on Page, he was sitting on other women all the time. He wasn't this like, good man. Maybe he hadn't done anything criminally wrong, but I don't think if we look at like who he was, he obviously didn't have a lot of respect for his marriage in general.
I Mean, I guess he probably didn't have respect for his wife. If you're cheating on your spouse, I don't think you have respect for them. I truly don't. So to him, his wife probably didn't mean that much, and having her dead was more value to him than having her alive. And, yeah, he could play the poor widow and, you know, that card up, get sympathy, all of that. But, like, if you plan in a murder, you need to at least do some better murder skills than what he had, because that was terrible.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: I will say I did watch the victim impact statements before sentencing, and they were so sad and heartbreaking.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: One of the children speak or something,
[00:19:45] Speaker A: or they sent letters so they didn't go. And I want to know what your thought from this statement was. One thing the sister said was, you know, we really hope that you would have just taken accountability for your children because we didn't want to put them through this trial. And now because of you, all of these text messages to your mistress, all of that's exposed on the Internet. They're going to hear the horrific things you said about their mother. Whereas if you had just taken accountability, this would not have happened. My take from that is they offered him a deal.
It sounds to me like they offered him some type of plea offer, some type of deal that probably wasn't life. You know, whether or not he would have been able to get out, I don't know.
I still think it was probably significant time. But it's, you know, from hearing her statement, it sounded like there was an offer in the case. They wanted him to take it so these girls would be protected from the public humiliation of their mother.
I don't know. I don't. She should be humiliate, humiliated. It should be the mistress of him. But regardless, like, I get their point, but do you take that the same way? Do you think that sounds like there was an offer?
[00:21:02] Speaker B: It sounds like that. Or if they're just saying you as their dad should have, like, done the right thing as a dad and just said you were guilty, even if it meant life in prison. So I don't know if there was a deal or not. I feel like to me, it's like you should have stepped up and been a dad at some point because obviously you weren't by killing their mother. And now you put them through even more heartache because, yeah, if you hadn't went to trial, none of this stuff would have went out. And I don't know, maybe. Maybe he thought he could get off. I mean, I don't know, maybe he truly thought that the state did not. I mean, I, I 100% think he killed her, but maybe in his head he thought, they don't have enough evidence, they're not going to get me. I don't know.
But I do think for the sake of his kids, it would have saved them.
I don't think the mom should be embarrassed because like they shouldn't be embarrassed for their mom.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
[00:21:57] Speaker B: Because, you know, that wasn't her fault. But I do see there's more of a level of embarrassment and shame because you see how gross your dad was.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
So he, he did deny it still at the end that he did not do this. And one of the things the daughter said too was that she would not visit him in prison.
And I mean, that might still stay true. She might want answers. And you know, regardless, I hope they're supported in whatever space they're in at each moment of their lives essentially.
But yeah, so, and the brother in law, he spoke and he, him and his wife. So the sister of the, the victim, they both spoke, but the brother in law statement was just so sad. Like, I mean, he said, you know, we have two kids and now we're raising the, the two daughters and it's just so hard, you know, they're trying to adjust to this new dynamic. They have two grieving daughters, you know, missing their mom and they're trying to be there for her, for them. And you know, that they have their own kids because like, you know, now they're having to navigate from two kids in the home to four. That's been an adjustment. And he said on top of all that, like, me and my wife are grieving ourselves like we lost somebody we love too. And it's just, he's like, that doesn't even begin to say like what all you took away from people.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: Well, like, yeah, I mean, like the two daughters obviously have lost both parents. I mean, yes, the dad is alive, but he's not your dad anymore. Like, I, I don't mean he's not right. You're moved in with new people and. Yeah, you know, but you knew him as aunt and uncle, not as mom and dad. And you know, their kids are grieving too. They lost their aunt. Like, it's not, there's so many levels of grief. And I will say running a two kid household is hard with two normal, like non.
I mean we've had like ups and downs but nothing traumatic besides like a grandma death, which is a normal death. Normal in the Sense of nobody murdered. I can't imagine dealing in a household with two little girls whose dad murdered their mom. Like, that's just a new level of hard. And it's hard enough, like, keeping my kids so much less what they're going through. So I do feel so sorry for the kids, for the other family members. And if you want to leave your spouse, just leave them. Money's not everything.
Just leave.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: And the ex wife I was referring to earlier, I'm still, you know, friends with her, love her. I love the kids. They're still my cousins and.
But I saw her post on Facebook and I thought it was really powerful. Like she was just talking about, you know, God is never going to give you a mistress. Like, you know, like that's just, that's not what. Because that's what they would say. They were like, oh, God's going to bless us and let us be together. God wants this to happen. Like, that was in the text messages between Caleb and the mistress and she was like, like, God's never going to send you a mistress. Like, that's, that's not happening. And if you are, you know, the other party, you know, somebody's married. Like, imagine reading your stuff on the stand. You know, if you, if you're embarrassed to read what you wrote on the stand, like, you shouldn't be doing it. And I just thought that was really impactful, you know. And I mean, I get. Humans make mistakes.
Murder is one of the biggest, if not the biggest.
But even before that, they were making a mistake. Like, imagine yourself reading that. If you can't read your stuff in open court, if you can't read your stuff at, from a pulpit at church, you probably shouldn't be in that situation.
And it's, you know, I think we've seen this in church settings before and it was just, I thought it was important to address. I really liked her post about it and I thought it was good, you know, good to talk about.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we're all human, we all make mistakes. But I think, you know, and I do, I think divorce can be harmful to children. I do think if you are parents that get divorced, it happens. But I think you do need to understand your kids may need therapy, your kids may need help because it is going to impact them, but that's a lot less of an impact than murdering their mother.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Because they lost both their parents.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: But I think we're going to move on to some other topics for next week.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: We've.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: If you haven't watched at some point, I'm going to talk about this. The Widow. What? It was a documentary.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: The Widower.
What is it?
[00:26:34] Speaker B: But it's on Netflix. It's a really ugly man.
Just watch it. You'll be like, wow. The Widower.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: Until death do Us Part on Netflix.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: But we're gonna talk about that in the future. And you're gonna be like us and be like, what is wrong with you women? But watch that and we'll have some more stuff coming up. And thank you for being with us for 100 episodes.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll see you next week for one on one.
