Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, everybody, it's Lacey.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: And I'm Lauren.
[00:00:03] Speaker A: And welcome to another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: So Today is our Fourth of July episode. This will be dropping on July 4th, and we're just digging right into the Constitution because what better way to celebrate the 4th than to talk about the we have as Americans.
I highly doubt we have any podcast watchers from outside of the U.S. but if you do, the Fourth of July is when we celebrate our independence and we have that and we have a constitution. So we're going to talk about it. And I think one of the first things we're going to dig into this is political, and we probably will expose more here than we normally do. But when you talk about constitutional law, there's really no way around it.
And we're going to talk about this situation that recently happened in Georgia. It is a very sad situation.
A lady was, I believe, about eight to 10 weeks pregnant and was killed in an accident.
But her body was kept alive through life support in order to bring the fetus to age of being able to survive outside the womb. So she was pretty much kept alive as a human incubator. There was no brain activity.
And I just kind of want to say, from my thoughts is a legal perspective, we sign these documents. So, like, one of the things I do as a state plan attorney is I make you sign. Well, I don't make you. You have. I encourage you to do what's known as a health care power of attorney. And R1 in South Carolina goes into detail about how you feel about being on life support and how you feel about being on feeding tubes. And I would say a good at least 50 to 60% of my clients do not want to be.
There's kind of three options on it. One is to let your family make the decision or your agent. Two is I don't want to be kept alive. And three is do everything you can to keep me alive as long as possible. I would say half the people pick option two. They're just adamant they don't want to be kept alive. A lot of people still pick option one because they want their kids or their spouse to have that decision. But rarely, rarely does anybody ever pick keep me alive if I'm no longer there, pretty much.
And so in this situation, you. She was brain dead, she had no activity, and your body will continue to breathe without your brain, like giving it functions for a while. But for the life support, she would have eventually just went on and passed away.
And in my opinion, I'm a religious person. But I think we were too busy playing God in that situation and keeping her on life support.
It was almost like science fictiony to me. I understand life.
There was a baby in there. And I don't want to get into how I feel about abortion and all that. I mean, like, that is very political. And I do agree there was a baby in there. But if nature had taken its course like it should have, both her and the baby would have passed away at that point. But instead, we've kept this woman artificially alive. That baby was not getting love from his mother inside the womb. And I think that is a huge. I think when growing a baby, like, the mother's love comes through. And I think the baby knows that in the womb also, moms are active, moms are out doing physical activity. Moms are eating healthy. I think most of us really try to be our best selves. Like, I really cut down on, like, the caffeine and like my sugary foods and tried to be a better person while pregnant on my lifestyle, I guess. And I think every mom, for the most part tries to do that. And so this baby was not getting any of that. It's just sitting in there and just like, almost like a science fiction. Like, it made me feel like Handmaid's Tales, like all of that, because she wasn't there.
And I think if we'd done things the way nature and God intended, they both would have passed away peacefully together. Family would have mourned, but they wouldn't have had to go through these months. And the reason they took the baby was her body was starting to decompose.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Did the baby survive?
[00:04:06] Speaker B: The baby's still alive. It is in nicu. It was only a pound and a half.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: They haven't really given any updates. I imagine the family wants privacy at this point since their whole life has been put on display. But I do hope the baby survives and I hope the baby has no long term side effects of this.
But how hard is that gonna be? Is when you grow up to know your mom was kept alive artificially for you. Just be born if you are able. I do hope that he becomes, you know, well and everything, but it just felt like a science fiction novel to me. And I feel like most of us realistically would have not wanted to be kept alive when we're not there.
I don't know religiously, I know we don't talk about that. I am religious. I don't know. At what point did her spirit leave the body? Was it left in limbo? There Was she already in heaven? Like I don't know that part of it, but I know like as a mom myself and thinking of like she already had a child alive, to see my body just rot and decompose, right, had to be extra heartbreaking. And I think that went against what she signed. I don't know if she had a healthcare proxy, I don't know. But a lot of us sign that we don't want to be kept alive. And that went against her wishes, that went against her rights. If she had signed that.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: If somebody doesn't sign one of those, what is the default?
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Then family. The next to Ken makes the decision.
And in this situation, her husband had requested her to be taken off life support.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: So and my thoughts are doctors, there's so many gray areas that people want to avoid in, in this topic that they try to make black and white. And just since we are talking about the Constitution, the legal argument that people make for to legalize abortion is under the fifth Amendment, no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law. And so that is the legal argument that we are talking about. So when I talk about these gray areas, doctors oath is to do no harm, right? And in a situation like this, there is, there's two patients, right? They've got the mom and they've got the baby inside at eight weeks.
Their oath is to do no harm. It is harmful to the mom to keep her alive as she decomposes and that's also harmful to the baby. And I think they can give this advice to the next of kin to make that decision.
And that's why I think with these strict laws under which she was kept alive as an incubator, that's why we, I don't believe we can have them because there are these gray areas. And I think we have to get back to trusting our, our doctors. And I think a lot of our doctors are religious, whether it's Christianity or not.
I also think in this situation, if she was 36 weeks pregnant, the advice would have been, hey, she is brain dead, she's not going to make it. But we, the baby is alive and doing great.
Let's do a C section. They're not going to kill the baby. At that point the baby is totally viable. They're not going to do that. They're not just going to turn her machines off and let her die and let the baby suffocate. That would be doing harm at that point to that baby. It's a completely different scenario and situation.
And that's why I think we have to trust our doctors to do no harm. There may be some iffy times like the 29, 30 weeks, and that's when I think it diverts back to the family. Hey, based on my medical opinion of doing no harm, these are the harms I could potentially see in keeping the mom alive. What do you want to do? And also honoring the healthcare power of attorney. But I think we have to really trust in our doctors. That's why we can't have hard cut black and white laws. The, you know, situations are so different. This was so early on. It was so harmful, I believe, to the mom and the baby.
I think both were deprived of life. And I'm fully with you. I was, I made so many decisions when I was pregnant for the health of myself because I knew it mattered for my baby.
And you know, that was not, you know, they could not do that in this situation. So I did see, and I briefly brought up Lauren. There was someone that we are both Facebook friends with that said if they were in the mom's shoes, they would want to be an incubator for their baby.
And I think if that is her choice, she can indicate that on her health care power of attorney and she can indicate to her family that. And that could be her choice.
That would not be my choice. I know my husband, I know my mama, I know my sister, I know Sean and my cousin. And like, I have so many people, my friends, I love them so much and I can't imagine putting them through that pain. Because while I, yes, a baby's lives matter, it does not matter more in my opinion than my husband's and my children's and my mamas and my sister and my cousin who is like my brother and my best friend, like it that their lives matter too. So in making my decision, I think I should be able to decide what is best for me and for me, their lives and the amount of trauma that they would have to go through and moving on without me. Because at this point, you know, it's clear if I was in this situation, I'm not going to make it.
I would not want that.
I know my husband could not handle that. And his life matters so much, especially if something like that happened with my boys that I already have two of one with special needs.
So if she wants that done, that is her choice. And I can respect that if that's what she wants to choose. But like the husband made that decision. I would want my husband to make the same decision and that would be My choice. And I think I'm entitled to that as well when I'm considering bunch of lives as well in those circumstances.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: When I think for me, I guess like the thing is I see all these people throw out, you know, religion in it and that, you know, the baby and everything and I'm like.
But I feel like the natural way like with all of this, I guess like this is where I come from too. Like we're artificially keeping her alive and the natural way was she should have died.
I mean like does she not deserve death with dignity? And like how God intended not for her to sit and suffer and also her be. I mean I don't know if she religious or not. I don't know if she believed in heaven. But in my thought, if I was in that situation, I would think I would be in heaven with my baby afterwards. Like we would be there together and I would not want to put my family through that. And I just feel, I feel like so many of our laws and doctors are scared right now to do anything and that makes you it hard. And I just feel like this is a situation that I really don't think the laws ever contemplated and they stepped in and overruled. A situation that I don't think when there's a six week abortion ban. I don't think that they were thinking of this as what if somebody's brain dead and decomposing. But we put her on like seat. They put her on life support in the hope she would come back. But she didn't come back and then they couldn't would take it out. It wasn't. She wasn't put on life support like but for the life support she would have already died. But they put it on there just thinking maybe. And life support is one of those things. Typically you're not on that long. Once you're on it a long time, you're never coming back. So like in that situation, none of it was how nature would have had it happen. I guess it was more like science.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: Fiction in religious base like you said. I agree with you wholeheartedly. That was playing God. You know, you want. People want to make it reverse. And I don't think so. I do believe in, in the choice though, you know, like the person put on Facebook, if that is her choice, I think it should be honored if that is her choice. But I also believe that that would not be mine. I would feel like it was playing God. And I'm with you. I still think it was a baby at eight weeks and if I were in this situation, and if I could say anything, God gets me an emotional thing about. I would just want my husband to be like, hey, you've got the two kids we have here on earth. I'm going to take this one to heaven. And I've got this one. And that's how I would totally feel in that situation, is that I would go to heaven with my baby. And that's how I'd want to go. I would want to go with my baby that's there and let my husband take care of our earthly children in the best capacity he could.
And I just think, God just this case makes me emotional because I just think there's so many levels of trauma that the law has put on her family members by putting them through this.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: And now taking away, like, it is emotional. Taking away the emotional part of it. Let's talk about part of the legal part of it, the money part. Who's covering this insurance wise, like, taking out all the emotion. Did her family just get strapped with a massive medical bill that they can't afford? And is this hospital gonna pursue it and try to come take their house? Like, because, like, so here's like, I guess in all reality is her medical debt because she's the one that was being kept alive. Her insurance refuses to pay because they're like, this isn't a reason to pay. We shouldn't have kept her alive.
So then there's a million dollars in debt and they come after her estate, which may have her house in it, which is what houses her kids and her husband. Like, who's gonna handle this? Who's gonna be responsible for this? And that's another downside of, like the metal.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: Like, it's when you make it black and white. Right?
[00:13:56] Speaker B: Health care law has made things so complicated and insurance is a ripoff in a lot of situations because you're going to end up paying a lot of stuff. Sorry, all my insurance people out there, but it is. And so in here, her family could be screwed again, having to pay all this money.
And it was for. Not what they wanted.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: No. And I also. It wasn't with this case. But I've seen someone put, like, if I am gonna die, you know, save the. My. My baby and let me go. And touching on that topic too, and thinking about other people's lives and similar to this, I have a son with special needs, like I've said. And I never.
He had a diagnosis of life, never would have considered abortion or anything. I'm morally strongly opposed to that.
If anybody Called me about terminating a pregnancy because of down syndrome diagnosis, I would just end the call as respectfully as possible because I just morally cannot. I'm not gonna ever gonna support anybody in that.
That is a gift I was given to by God, but also his life is a gift I was given to by God. If I was in a situation where I.
There was a baby I had not met yet on this side of earth or, or me, I have to be here for the life of my kids. And God gave me one that I'm going to be responsible for for the rest of his life.
And his life matters. And so I think that just circles back to like, these health care power of attorneys and decisions and choices and not having laws that are black and white. Like, there's a lot of lives that matter in each people's, in each person's situation. And if this mom wants to leave her three kids in that situation, if she were in that situation and leave her three kids without a mom because that life is just as important, that's great. That's her choice. That's not mine. And I don't have those same beliefs. And I would still believe that there would be a baby in heaven that I will love when I get there, But I'm still choosing life and I still stand by that and think that's religious and godly as well.
With that being said, do.
Is there any standing to fight the law with a health care power of attorney? Like, if I had signed that and I am brain dead and my husband's trying to enforce it and it goes against the law, can you.
Do you have any, like, do you have a legal right to have your, you know, what you signed implemented when you have these laws?
[00:16:37] Speaker B: I think you do have a legal right. The issue with this issue, like, I would say, like, you know, if I sign this and this is all what I wanted, the doctors weren't doing it. Yeah, I think the husband is the agent would have standing to try to, like, make sure your laws were implemented. Some of the issues in the healthcare side of things is things move really quickly. So like, in, like, health care, it can move quicker than what we can have in a legal side of things.
But also, I mean, we've seen the argument, you know, before, like, being brain dead, what does that mean? Like, should you pull the feeding tube, should you pull the life support? And medical law is just so crazy in terms of, like, trying to have cases on it just because it does move quicker and you're gonna have. And getting cases like this to A Supreme Court where you're gonna have overrule. And like, honestly I never thought we would have Roe versus Wade overturned because I thought there was a big standing argument on that case even getting to the Supreme Court.
But it somehow did and it was overturned.
But I think like in a lot of medical cases, you are not going to get, you know, someone to come in and make that decision.
So this was recently on the news that Republican senator or whatever from Senator House. I didn't say whatever in like a condo. I meant it like, I don't know what she's in, but she recently had an atopic pregnancy and she was eight weeks. And because of the ban in Florida on abortions, she, her doctors were not sure if they could actually perform the removal of the atopic pregnancy.
She had to call Governor DeSantis and they told, who told the doctors that she could have her atopic pregnancy removed. So what if you've been a regular person and that's situation because most of us can't just call up the governor and say, hey, I have a. I do not think at that point, like, I, I wouldn't classify what she had technically as like an abortion in terms of that.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: I agree. And I think we've gotten too far with that.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: The fetus wasn't viable. I mean, like, it can't survive. And it was, there was no heartbeat. But because she was technically eight weeks and it had survived eight weeks, the doctors were worried if that was the six weeks abortion ban or not. And I just feel for regular women like me and you, who wouldn't have the connections to call and a doctor's scared to sit there and take my, you know, fallopian tube out, even though, like, there's never going to be a baby that can grow there, it's gonna just kill me because it's gonna explode and hope I don't die.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: So, like, I do think these laws have gotten way more complicated. I think doctors are scared and doctors are always scared of lawsuits and it's. I don't know, I mean, I don't know how a doctor could say I did no harm in that situation if you let a woman's tube explode.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: I know, and that's why I, like, I really think it's so important to just get back to that. Because I do think if a doctor took somebody off life support when a mom is 36 weeks pregnant and let a baby die at that age would be doing harm because there is a baby that's fully grown, fully developed, fully, they might need A shot for their lungs, but that's about it. Like, there's. There's nothing else that they're a full. Yeah, but at eight weeks, here's the thing. I think if you can, like, if the baby is a bit like we, you can do a C section on a mom and take the baby out. And this is normal. Right. You do it at 36 weeks, 35 weeks, 34 weeks. These are regular things that happen. Things come up. These things are done.
We know that doctors are doing that because they cannot do harm, and that would be doing harm if they did not do a C section and save that baby's life. There are weeks of pregnancy where that is not true that it is going to be doing harm to a baby, because there are a lot of things that are very painful for these babies to go through, and it will be very harmful and very suffering. And so I just think we have to get back to trusting our doctors. And I also think we have a. We as women get those options as well. Like I said, the women I've discussed, I think they should have that choice. I think mine should be respected based on my religious beliefs as well, because I am also very spiritual.
I would say more spiritual than religious these days. But my question with that is, let's say that we. I don't, like, we don't have the laws that we have here in South Carolina. Right. Let's say it goes back to what it was when I was pregnant, which is 20 weeks. Okay.
If with health care power of attorneys, would you ever put that in a woman's health care power of attorney? Because I think it's a good idea. I mean, if my opinion is so significantly different from other women's, I think they should be given that option. You know, I think they can say, oh, by the way, if I'm pregnant and I'm over 20 weeks, I would want to be left alive as soon as. As long as possible to try to save my baby. Or, hey, if I'm pregnant at all, I. I don't. Unless it's over 32 weeks. Have you ever thought about putting that in a power of attorney? Is that something that's ever crossed anybody? It. Do you think that should be done?
[00:21:52] Speaker B: No, I've never thought about it until recently. So in our healthcare powers of attorney, there's this special place where you can add some language to it for specific things. What I see most commonly used there is for, like, if you're a Jehovah, one is witnessed, you don't typically believe in blood transfusion. So a lot of times we want to make that clear. That. And they do have. I will say they do believe in different products, but not a full transfusion. And they will list it there in that section about this is how I want this handled. So they're very proactive in doing that, for the most part. And I will say, I think how they've worded it is very specific.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: They.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: The church has told them how to word it, to make it where it's applicable to what their beliefs are. And so I think maybe that's something that pregnant women are going to have to think about now, because it's something I never thought about, I guess I've never thought. I thought if I die, the baby's just going to die, you know, unless I am like 32 weeks, cut it out of me.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Right?
[00:22:51] Speaker B: So I've never thought about that. So that's something that I think, you know, moving forward, women may want to think about. Put especially, I mean, I'm not gonna put it in there now. I don't plan on having any more children. Like, but like, if you are in that age of childbearing age and you are, maybe you're not even thinking about having children now, but, you know, it's in your future kind of thinking of that side of things. Like, do I want to add something in there about that? Because I would like my wishes to be handled. And the nice thing about healthcare, power of attorneys. They're always revocable, always changeable. So, you know, if you put one thing, like, if this is your first child and you're like, you know what, let me be an incubator, let me do this.
And you want to do it, but then you think, I've got three kids, this is going to screw them up mentally for them to see me like this. We can change it. And I think that's really nice.
And I do think it is kind of a constitutional right. We have to be in charge of our own bodies and our own self as long as it doesn't interfere with other people. And so I think that is what needs to happen, is your wishes do need to be respected as long as they are not hurting anyone else. Like, obviously, like, I have a lot of people come in and have questions about, like, organ donation and all that stuff. Are the doctors going to kill me to get my organs? No, they are not.
They are not.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: I've heard that one.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: Are they going to kill me in my organs? No. But one thing I did learn recently, and this is one where laws come into play that may impact what you do. So used to, there were laws, and I know this was in Tennessee, there used to be laws that if you were an organ donor, your insurance was supposed to cover your part of having the organs harvested. And the insurance companies would fight that. They didn't have to cover that because you were dead at that point. So the family would end up getting stuck with a bill for being harvested.
And that is so messed up.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: That's so horrible.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: So, like, if you want to be now in South Carolina, we don't have that law. What happens is typically the person getting it, their insurance pays for it. And there's, like, protections and stuff.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Never been thought of, by the way. I've never thought about what insurance kicks in for harvesting organs.
[00:24:59] Speaker B: So it's pretty crazy. And like, it's kind of crazy. Insurance law is stopping people from doing something good that they wanted it, like, had a client say, I really want to donate my organs. But my family, we ain't got money. They can't afford to pay for this, like. But I would help somebody if I could. And so we did some research. So in South Carolina, you're good to do that. But in some states still, there could be issues with if you don't need organs, who's going to pay for it, and if your insurance refuses to pay, what happens? Which should not be. As part. You shouldn't be penalized for trying to save a life.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: What a mess.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, it would definitely conflict with the laws of our state, probably. But I think for me and my power of attorney, I would just stick with what I've already have and that it would go to my husband, because I know my husband loves our boys and he loves me. And if we plan to have another child, biologically, we don't. We plan to adopt. But if we changed our minds there, he would also love that baby and he would make the best decision for all of our lives in that situation with a doctor. So I think for me, I wouldn't need to put that in. And, you know, but, you know, talking about it makes me think, like, I. I guess if we decided, you know, if we ever changed our mind and went that route, like, we would need to sit down and have a discussion about, you know, kind of where my mind's at when he. If he ever had to make that decision. And, you know, I do think we as women have to start thinking about themselves and advocating for it and contract and contract, essentially, even with these laws. I mean, at least an attorney can have, I guess, have standing to fight the. The laws if it's against it, if you're arguing it, that it is their wishes and it's written down in contract and they were informed.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: I will say kind of just to end this, kind of how this makes me think there is this, like Parks and Rec. I don't know if y' all watch that show. It's amazing if you don't. But there's a character, Ron Swanson, he's pretty much the most libertarian person, anti government person in the world, doesn't want the government in your business. And he says that is the beautiful thing about America. If I want to, you know, drink a thousand liters of Coke and eat like 50 billion steaks, I can. And that's what's beautiful about America. And I feel like that's what should be beautiful about our health care, too, is that we get to make decisions. Because as Americans, we value our individual freedoms and making decisions for ourselves. And we hope you have a happy and safe Fourth of July. Do not do anything stupid. Don't drink and shoot fireworks. End up in the er. I had a call today with the firefighter and I said, have a happy Fourth. And he was like, well. And I was like, oh, yeah, right. You're probably going to be like, at 10 different houses because of idiots. So be safe with shooting your fireworks or anything you do.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Don't drink and drive if the Uber and Lyft are cheaper than my fees.
So if you choose to drink, Uber and Lyft is going to be a lot cheaper than a dy. Our DUI laws are getting harder and harder. So, you know, please make good choices one crime at a time. If you're going to commit a crime, just do one at a time. Don't escalate it. Once you do that, it gets a lot worse. But if you do make choices and need help, call me.
Well, we hope you have a happy.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: 4Th and we'll see you next time.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: Bye.
[00:28:22] Speaker B: Bye.
