Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
And I'm Lauren and welcome to another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: So today we're gonna dig into like our reality TV like series and we'll be doing a few of these on like different reality shows or just kind of like the legality of some things that have came up on reality shows. But today we're going to kind of be starting with sister wives and polygamy. But. But I guess let's just kind of for y' all to get to know kind of where this came from.
Let's maybe me and you. So doing a question, tell what our favorite reality shows are just so they can get to know us. So, Lacy, what's your favorite reality show?
[00:00:44] Speaker A: So before jumping in there, I just want to say this series was voted on by our listeners. So thank you.
My favorite. Oh my. It's got to be the Kardashians. Yeah, the Kardashians is definitely my favorite.
I know people don't like Kim. I love Kim K. I didn't always love her. I was always probably at the beginning of Courtney and then a Chloe and now a Kim K. Which seeing what Kim is doing in the criminal justice system with reform, I don't think it's any shock. That's why I align with her. But I remember when Mason was born and her and Courtney pulling him out. I remember Kim getting preeclampsia with North. I've been there through the divorces, the 72 day marriage. I was there for the wedding and the other wedding and the other way wedding. I feel like I have just been with Chloe through so much and I feel personally victimized by Tristan Thompson and Lamar Odom. Little bit more empathetic to Lamar, than Tristan, but yeah, Kardashians all the way.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: What about you? So I think what got me hooked on reality TV is we're throwing this old school way back Laguna beach that. Oh, wow. Okay. That is what got me hooked on reality tv. I loved and let me tell you, I was seeing Kristen like now I'm like oh elcies like a give her some. But like Kristen was legit real the whole time. There was no fakiness to her and I loved her and I enjoyed watching Lagona. Then I love the heels. Justin Bobby, I love you to this day. Like I wish him and Audrina had been a couple. Yes.
And then I stayed watching. Even the other year, Kristen Cavalieri had her own show on E called Barry Cavalieri where she was married to.
Why can I not think of his name? The quarterback.
Yes, him so and that was one me and my husband actually watched together because he thought Jay Cutler was hilarious because he was just such, like, dry, like, sense of humor. And now Kristen's got another show. I think overall that probably started my love for reality tv. But I have enjoyed everything from, you know, I like reality TV as far as, like, Big Brother, love that love, like Bachelor in Paradise, all those type things. And I like, I'm not a Real Housewives person. That's probably been one of the ones I haven't ever really got into.
But right now I recently started, which is kind of why, like, I want to talk about polygamy and all this. Like, I've always been in and out of Sister Wives, but there's a new show on TLC and it is a train wreck. It is called the Poly Family and they are started it.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: I haven't gone past an episode, but I did start it.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: They're a quad. And so, like, what they are is, is two husbands and wives are now a couple with another couple. But, like, there's no same sex relations in this one. And some quads there are, I believe, from what they said. But in this it's. They pretty much switch. They're swingers, but a closed swinger set pretty much is how I see it. So, like, with them and Sister W. And these are all on tlc, by the way. So, like, TLC must really love the, like, polygamous lifestyle. But they have a lot of shows. You know, I remember watching a show, I think it was on tlc about these women losing weight and they had a hot trainer. I cannot remember what it was, but it was back on TLC back in the day. Yeah, his trainer's name was Jesse. I don't remember. But I've always liked reality. It's my escape from my reality. But we don't go wanting to talk about, like, the legalities of all this because you hear like, I own the closed pot on the Poly Family show. They don't.
Their legalities have really focused on the family side of things. And like, what if one of them dies in custody and stuff? So I think we'll get more into that in the future. But, like, the biggest thing I wanted to start with was like, you hear on Sister Wives, like, I don't know, back in the day, like, they would be driving across Camp State line to another state and they're like, this state doesn't allow polygamy. Like, we could be arrested and all this type stuff. Like, so I kind of wanted to talk about is There truth to that. And like, why does.
I guess in one part of it is why does the state care what any of these people are doing?
Because in all real, like, I try not to get political in much of this, but like, in all reality, like, for a lot of people, it's like, why does it matter? Like, if they're not hurting anyone else in this situation, why does it matter? Although Cody's hurting a lot of people, so public interest is against him. But kind of like, what is. Why do they care about polygamy? But just so everybody knows, there is a federal law and it is. I have it pulled up because I can't remember it. It's the Edmonds anti Polygamy act of 1882. So polygamy has been outlawed since 1882. And we talk about polygamy. It was in the Bible. For all the religious people that watch this, you know, that's where that is why they say they are polygamists, because they are members of Latter Day Saints, I believe is what Mormon. There's like conflict. There's like different sexes broke off.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: There's different sex of Mormons. And this is one branch. But I think they are even like not allowed to associate with them at this point.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: So. But polygamy is illegal. But I guess like the question is, are people really getting arrested for polygamy?
And typically the answer is no. A cop is not going to see a man out in public with his like three. And notice in this polygamy here with sister wives is always a man with multiple wives. The poly family, they're all like. It's multiple, like both men and women. But anyways, they're usually a cops not gonna pull somebody over and just out of nowhere say, are you a polygamist? I'm arresting you, I'm taking you to jail. So that is usually not what happens with polygamy. So this whole, like, we're so nervous driving into this other site, like, okay, for when they're public figures, so somebody really wanted to arrest them. I feel like that would have already happened at this point. But too, like, you see a man driving down the road with three women in the car, do you just look over and go, oh my gosh, is that a polygamist? Like, I don't think that's usually what comes through the cop's head.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: So I think in those early episodes that they were worried because they were starting to be targeted because they were opening up. Right. So I don't think a state really cares as long as you're going to be hush hush about it, right?
So in South Carolina it is illegal statewide. But again, like Lauren said, if a guy's pulled over and he's got three women in the car and he says who are these? And they say, you know, my wives. He's not going to say, well you can't be married to all them and take them. I just don't think he'd care. I think he'd be like, okay, well you're speeding, here's your ticket.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Have a good day.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: Even though it is against, against the law. But I think the problem with the Sister Wives was going public on the TV show and you're, you're coming on camera saying I am breaking laws.
Here we are.
And so I think that was the problem is they were being targeted at that point and it would probably had to do with politics and political in the, in the state that they were in because the, that sect of Mormonism was not really accepted and polygamy wasn't accepted. And I do think religion, it's not supposed to play a huge part in politics, but I think we'd be lying to ourselves that in a lot of states it does. So I think there were a lot of religious based people in legislature there and probably telling people to target, you know. And so I think, I do think there was some legitimate fear. But I also think like in Vegas and one of the reasons I probably did move there is I doubt people just did not going on in Vegas.
[00:08:36] Speaker B: Vegas is like the capital of sin. So yes, like there's not, I think one of the like nuances in this polygamy law though is they say living under one roof with more than one wife. So like in the beginning days of Sister Wives they were like, I think before Robin came in, I don't know if they ever lived in the same house.
Obviously I don't like Robin or Cody. I'm all team. If you ask me, I'm team Janelle. She has been the from the start. Mary is. She seems to be kind of. And then Christine gets on my nerves. She too bossy. Janelle is like, I would love to be her friend. And she lives in North Carolina now, so who knows, I may see her one day with her. Like it's all living in one house. So I mean there's some arguments there because in all reality once the show started and they had all these children and commit, they weren't living in one house. Each wife had their own house and Cody would just go visit the houses and then they got their Big, like compound and all that. But I think one of the big issues, like where polygamy. The issue. I think where polygamy gets more into the legal world is when we have issues that come up. And I'm not saying polygamists do this. Like, I'm not in no way, in any part of this am I judging people who are polygamous or anything like that. I am judging Cody. Not gonna lie. I don't like him. Don't.
Um, but in all of this, like, it's not that, but what happens a lot of times is what I've noticed from doing some research is the polygamy. There's certain frauds that could be happening. Like for instance, they are married as a couple. Like only one of you is married and the other three or two or however many in your section are single. And then they will claim all of the children as dependents and say dad gives them no support and those things and can end up on government assistance like Medicaid, welfare, or they can be getting big tax write offs and all of those things. I'm sorry, I have had a. I did not dress up today for work. Obviously my hair's getting on the nurse. But so like, they commit fraud and they start looking into those activities at that point because, you know, just because you're not married, dad can still claim these kids on their. On his insurance. It doesn't mean that he can't do that. So then they're getting like government insurance and then somebody begins to look into it. And I think that is where one of the biggest issues with polygamy starts to come in. Because they're not. See, they're not just going after somebody just for being polygamous. It's because there's some other bad action that came into it. And they use the polygamy as a way to arrest those people or scare them a lot of times because they're like, oh, you've committed this fraud. We'll let this. Like, we can take you to jail right now on polygamy if you don't like back pay this month, like that type stuff. So I think that is really what. And I think, although it's very like taboo, but the child abuse too.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Well, yes, like, I mean, that's unfortunately deep seated in the history of polygamy. And if anybody, you know, researches polygamy, one name that is going to come up is Warren Jeffs and the flds. And I think especially because of where Sister Wives was geographically, that is why state lawmakers cared more so than probably over here this way in South Carolina. If you're unfamiliar with the flds, they are a polygamous cult ran by Warren Jeffs who is in prison for the rest of his life for raping a 12 year old that he married.
And there's audio from it.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: There is a really good. It's really sad, but there's a great documentary on Netflix about the church a lot. If you want to get into cult watching, which I sometimes like the cult documentaries, there's a great one on this on Netflix. But pretty much, yes, a lot of the times, like while in Koji's situation, I believe every single, like they were all adults when they got married and they accepted this lifestyle. So in no way am I going after him for that because I just think he's crappy person. I'm not saying anything he did was like that type level. But yes, and a lot of this with polygamy, especially in that sect of it, the children were getting married at 12, being forced to have sex with them because they needed to produce offspring for this. And then the children had no say. And what was really bad with a lot of this is like these towns would be completely ran by like the more those people and part of that cult or that sect of that. Because that would be the cops.
That would be. They would own the land.
So like in a lot of these little small towns, the church owned the whole place where you live. So it's not just as easy like people wonder, why don't you just get away from it. It's not as easy as people thought after watching this documentary. It really put a lot. Because your land is owned by the church.
The cop that you're gonna go tell your husband beat and raped you. It's a part of the church, so there's no escaping it. And there are a lot of times in those situations and I do not think that was what the sister lives were a part of. But that is another reason why polygamy is very looked into. Because of the child brides and the family thinks that's what they're supposed to do. And there's nobody there to look out for these children.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: And then you have the Kingstons, they are another polygamous cult and you also have child brides and evidence of that. In the Kingstons you also have incest. So in the Kingstons, they want to believe, they want to preserve the bloodline. So there's a lot of incest and children born with birth defects as a result of incest. So when you're talking about polygamy, There is public policy to criminalize it. I'm not saying it should all be criminalized, and consenting adults shouldn't, you know, and there's laws to protect from that. Right? But because these cults do exist and so secretively, and like Lauren was said, because it's owned by cops that are thinking that this is okay to do, it's hard to enforce the laws that exists. So that's why I think on a federal level, they're trying to, okay, well, what can we do? And this is, hey, we're just going to out, you know, make it illegal to be a polygamist. But it doesn't seem like that's ever done anything either to help these. These victims in these polygamous cults that do exist. So there is public policy ingrained. I believe, in making it illegal. But I also want to point out, I think that was one of the reasons the sister wives wanted to come out in the open, because they believed, if true, if polygamists with consenting adults like that are wanting to live this way, and whether they believe in it religiously or they just want to live it, that by being more open with it, if you make them, if you allow them to be open and not arrest them, it's gonna expose more of these secret cults. So I, you know, so like I said, public policy exists. But they were trying to say, if they're out in the open, maybe it will help these victims in these secret polygamous cults. But I don't know that they achieved that. You know, kind of like team mom. They're like, okay, let's talk about how hard is being team mom. Can we reduce rates? And they actually did. But I don't know if coming open has helped victims and cults come out.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: When I think, like, right now, we saw how sister wives truly fell apart.
So I don't know if they did anything to help their calls, because we have seen, and especially now that I feel like Mary, Christine, and Janelle, they have taken the gloves off and they're being honest with everything now. So I don't know if they did much to destigmatize it, because their whole relationship, their family, fell apart. And the only thing, I guess, for them there has been some benefit because they've had financial gains from it, from being able to put this out there and do all this. But as far as. Did they destigmatize it? No. I do think they're real people. They have real emotions, real feelings, and I do think at some point in time, those women all loved Cody. Did he love them? I really don't know. But he's a narcissist, so that's nothing to do with polygamy. That is him. That sucks. But one other interesting thing I just want to touch on for this is the whole marriage factor in all of this, because so in Sister Wives with that, he was married to Mary originally, and that was his first wife. In the whole show, he divorces Mary to marry Robin, to supposedly adopt her kids. We all know that was garbage because he just wanted to be with Robin. It is what is. But how did that. I guess my question is, how did they get that divorce? Because you have to have grounds for a divorce. And I don't know where this is South Carolina law. I know. So it may be different in other states, but in South Carolina to have a divorce, there has to be ground, such as desertion, the husband just. Or wife disappears, things like adultery, things like alcoholism, drug abuse. Those type things are the most common one that most people get divorced under is a year of living separately.
And when you go through a divorce, you have to get somebody on the stands to say, I did not live with this person for a year. And that means more than just live. That means you did not have adult relations with that person in that year.
[00:18:08] Speaker A: So I know when you.
I'm not familiar with the laws in. Where were they at in this point? Arizona, Utah, Nevada? Anyway, I think they might have been.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: In Utah because this was near the.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: Start, so it's near California. And so I know when we see celebrities divorce, you'll see them say irreconcilable differences. And if I remember correctly, I think that's what Mary said is that they had irreconcilable differences. But I think if they. If we applied South Carolina law, they still could have gotten divorced. Because, remember, after the catfish incident, which was before the divorce, that was the last time Cody stayed there. So when she was catfishing him, she told him she was, you know, she. She kicked him out. And they had not had any relationship for a while, and it was a couple seasons, I think after the catfish incident, when the divorce happened, or am I thinking of this chronologically wrong? But if I'm right, then I think under South Carolina law, they could still could have divorced. If the catfish incident was in fact.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Before the divorce, do you think they did not reckon file at any point in a whole year's time.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: She had said that they had not been together for years and years and years when she left.
Because they weren't together romantically, I don't think at all in Vegas, because that's when the catfish incident happened.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Let's see.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: They clearly were not in Arizona, in Covid.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Wait. They divorced in September of 2014.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: So it was before the catfish incident.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: It was at the. It was because he was trying to adopt the kids, Robin's kids, And that is the only way he could adopt her kids, he said.
But Mary and Cody split in 2023, but they did not have to have a divorce or separation because they're already divorced. So when they broke up, and let's say Cody, Mary, Robin.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: Because the catfish incident was in 2015.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: So Robin got it wrong.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: I had it backwards.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: It was beforehand. So she could have done it because she was mad at him.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: Well, then from the catfish incident, we know that he had not been kicked out.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Yes. So he was. They were still having a relation. He divorced Mary in September and married Robin in December.
So I don't know, maybe there's some special loophole there. But in South Carolina, there wouldn't have been grounds for divorce because they would have been together. And I know there's like a. The courts don't want to get into your bedroom life.
But the question on family, family court is not like your regular court. It is like a court of equity, which means we're just trying to do what's best for people. And overall, from policy, from the start of the US we like a family unit. You can tell that based on our tax laws, get tax breaks for being married. We like the thought of a normal family unit is kind of how everything was built. So the thought of family courts is we're going to do everything we can to make sure these people stay if they can kind of thing. I'm not saying that's as much true today, but that's how it all, like, started.
[00:21:28] Speaker A: So laws are based in that, though, because not every state is even required to be separated a year.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: I mean, but with her, I'm thinking that they were still technically a married couple living as a married couple. And he just left her. And I wonder if there was some type of. Because there had to be some type of affidavit or testimony given to get her divorced.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Unless it's just easier in that state. Yeah. If it happened in Nevada, you've got Vegas there. And I would imagine that they're, you know, because you have people that get drunk and get married in Vegas, it wouldn't shock me if Nevada's divorce proceedings were different. And more relaxed.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: They still have separately for a year.
Interesting for Nevada now. I imagine most of the people who go and get those marriages get an annulment, not a divorce at that point.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: Because they never really have been together too long.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Many years before this happened.
[00:22:29] Speaker A: An annulment. Right.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: I just thought that was kind of interesting. And all of this because divorce like this touches on so many areas of law and like another area. And maybe we'll. We're getting close to times. Maybe we'll save those for in the next episode is like how like when. And I this is part is really sad. Janelle's son passed away. Like what fights would Cody have with any of that? Because he was never married to Janelle or Christine. No, I mean like never married. And then kind of talking about like just as far as property goes because they were never married. That's why we had all these issues with the. What was it? Cody pass or whatever.
But those type things. I will say one of the big issues that the poly family that we might can dig into next episode talks about is the fact of child custody. You can only have two parents on a birth certificate. And they're saying they're all four parents. And one thing on the poly family, this is why I watched it. It was like a train wreck. You can't look away from. But they don't know who the kids. So there were two kids born prior to the. Prior to the quad and there have been three kids born in the quad. They don't know who the daddies are.
So like there's all this paternity issues all wrapped up in that. And like they have actually went and seen lawyers on this. So like they saw two lawyers. They live in Oregon, which Oregon is obviously a more liberal state on certain laws and more accepted on those things. But they went and saw two attorneys and this is what was interesting to me. And we can talk about the laws and stuff. Two different attorneys, they got two completely different opinions in the same state. So I just thought that was really interesting to see from a legal perspective. They went and got an opinion from one attorney and then they didn't like that answer. And usually, you know, like you think, well, she said, you know, in the medical world, you're like, well, let me get a second opinion. I don't really think about it as much in the legal world because I thought the law was more black and white. But she went into her another attorney and got a second opinion and they had a completely different thought process on how birth certificates and parents and all this stuff work, so it's interesting. And I think family dynamics and so much.
While these are reality shows and I know so much of it is scripted and drama and stuff, the legal issues underneath it are still real issues that, you know, there's a chance they could have went to jail.
[00:24:56] Speaker A: So, you know, I think going forward, episodes that y' all can look forward to to our listeners is really digging into the public policy as to why polygamy is illegal. I think there's just so many things that are very difficult and will be difficult for lawmakers to string out and families that involve. Involve multiple, you know, even if it is multiple consenting adults. So episodes look forward to is me and Lauren are going to dig into property law with Coyote Pass and issues that have come up between those wives, custody dynamics if.
And the children that, like, Cody adopted and all of that stuff.
And the custody with, you know, Christine left him and, you know, if she had not wanted him to be a part of Truly's life and stuff like that. So definitely digging into the public policy as to why polygamy is illegal and the things that would be very hard for lawmakers to adjust our laws to if it was legalized. So.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: And I think we'll discuss as well the estate plan, like, just kind of tying into what I do, like how this works with estate planning, how this works if you die and you're in a polygamous relationship.
And then we are going to talk about some other reality shows down the road, like Mormon Housewives, if you haven't watched that. It's full of drama and it's juicy, but there's some. Definitely some legal issues in that show as well. So we will love to go and dive into all this with you, but DM us, give us your thoughts. Tell us about questions you have.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: Yep, thanks.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: Bye.
