Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: It's Lacey.
[00:00:06] Speaker A: And I'm Lauren, and welcome to another.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And today we're going to continue on kind of our infamous women series.
And we're digging into a little bit different. This isn't murder. This is more white collar crumbs. And we're talking about. I'm. Yes. And you know Anna Delvey with her complete white collar fraud and all those embezzlement, all those type crimes today.
But first, let's start off with a question. And I did not ask Lacey about this beforehand.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: She usually gives me somewhat a heads up. But here we go again.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Well, this is nothing to do with what we're talking about today, but we did talk about it just a second ago. Okay, so what is your latest binge on Netflix that the whole world is talking about right now?
[00:00:55] Speaker B: Oh, Lord, I'm shamed. Like when you said you were.
So mine is the hunting. Is it Huntington Wives?
[00:01:02] Speaker A: The Hunting Wives.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Hunting Wives. Yeah.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: So mine too.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: And yeah, it's raunchy, y'. All.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: It is raunchy. And I just thought we would talk about it for a second because all of you out there are talking about it, and I know a ton of you are ashamed you watched it because of how raunchy it is.
But I guess in this, I turn.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: It off when my husband walks in the room. Like, that's how raunchy it is. Like, I don't even want to him to see me watch it. I mean, clearly I wait till the kids go to bed to put it on. But yeah, no, I. I even feel weird with my husband in the room. Watch. Like, I just gotta be by myself. That's the level that that show is.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: But just coming from it, like, this is not any spoilers or anything, but, like, the sheriff pretty much runs the show and you don't see, like, the prosecutors are like, really the.
The first defense attorney that comes in is like, garbage and that type stuff. But how realistic, I guess for those of us who watch the Hunting Wives and we see that really the prosecution's not involved in anything. The sheriff's making the judges on who they're going to arrest, who's going to go to trial, like, those type of things. Like, how realistic. And this is a small town, mind you, so, like, yeah, I know Lacey's practice in some very small towns like our hometown and that type stuff. How realistic is it that the prosecution isn't involved at all, but it is like the sheriff that just controls everything.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Honestly, it's a better question For a prosecutor. This is what I can tell you because I've never worked as a prosecutor.
I do know I was in prelims one time a couple years ago. One of my friends was the prosecutor on call. So in every county there's always a prosecutor on call. So that way if there is an intense crime, like you know, a shooting, like was it that was in this show, typically that prosecutor on call is going to be notified as to, you know, just looped into what's going on just in case like they need search warrants or they need arrest warrants. They will be clued in.
A couple of years ago, like I said I was in preliminary hearings, the on call prosecutor got called to a crime scene and she immediately had to go to that crime scene and be there for it. So I don't know like the extent that they would be involved, but I do know that someone will at least be called and notified and looped in.
I would imagine our elected solicitor is going to be looped in if it is something extremely serious. Of course, as to what's going on, I don't know how often they go to crime scenes right when they happen though, but they would be the ones to ask the, the judge for those higher arrest warrants. But the officers can too.
But if they are, you know, curious if they have enough evidence and they don't know if they have enough evidence, then a lot of times they will go to a prosecutor. So I had what's called a pre file recently and that just means allegations were made against my client. The investigator collected the evidence, took it to a solicitor and the solicitor determined there was not enough evidence to move forward on the case and to close it. And so my client wasn't arrested. So there is some involvement. It's not like the show where it's just like there's no lawyers everywhere. But how involved and how little they are involved is probably a better question for a prosecutor. And that might be somebody that we want to have on the show and, and kind of find out, you know, the, the extent to the, their involvement in these bigger crime investigations. I'd be curious to know like realistically.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: Though, like we all know the prosecutor in higher level crimes, not a magistrate court is different, right? In high level crimes, the prosecutor, the attorney, the solicitor is the one actually trying the case. So you know, they're the one that has to deal with the evidence given by the cops and everything. And I just thought in this show, like it's obviously a TV show and we all know like medical Shows are definitely dramatized like Gray's Anatomy is probably not at all what it's like to work in a hospital.
And I think it kind of shows like in anything legal, it's not exactly how it is in the real world. Real world on how you know this stuff because I don't think the sheriff has the decision ultimately on if somebody's gonna be arrested. You have to get the judges decision. And usually in those type cases you are going to have to have like a prosecutor to know if there's enough evidence to bring a crime involved. I guess it's not as rogue I think in the real world as what we saw in the show. But I just always like to break down, you know, TV shows and for everybody watching it, it's an awesome show. Just be prepared for a ton of smut. But the storyline is awesome. And now I want to go read the book that is based off of. Because everybody says the book is better. So I'll read that and give you all an update in a while. But now we're going to jump past into Anna Delvey. So I think one of them.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: I got a question real quick before we go in there. So my paralegal asked me because they made somebody listening may have this question too. I'll let you answer.
What is white collar crime? You know, she didn't know what that was. So can you kind of explain the charges that are typically we see when somebody says what white collar crime, what we mean when we say that.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: So white collar crime is those crimes that are not.
It's not like murder, it's more like the financial crimes. But not like burglary. It usually tends to be like fraud is typically one of the biggest white collar crimes because our embezzlement, those type things usually is some type of financial crime. Typically.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: And it's green collar crime because it's money.
Yes.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: And it's usually you see, there's a lot of times why they call it white collar is, you know, we have the difference between white collar and blue collar workers. Like we all know that. But these usually come in like industries. A lot of times, you know, that's what you see. Like that CEO of that big company getting arrested for is a white collar crime because he's embezzled, you know, $5 million from the company.
It's typically not those crimes. Like I'm not saying murder can't happen through a white collar crime.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Typically we're going to the financial crimes and instance like one of those shows, you know, the white collar show that's on came on years ago that is actually. It's all about fraud, crime. I actually. So white collar is technically based off of a real life story as well as the movie Catch me if you can.
I don't know if a lot of people saw that with Lee.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: I didn't know that.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hanks, I think, are the two main characters and Catch me if you can, but it was actually based off a real life person. And I have actually met him in real life.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: He spoke. What's crazy is when I was a law clerk, he spoke at.
So clerks and judges go to like a CLE that kind of covers the CLE for the year. It's like two days in Columbia, typically. And he was one of, like, he was the keynote speaker at that. But what he did, like, in his situation, he impersonated people to forge checks and that type stuff. Like, he would go in and say he was a pilot. And this was back a lot. This man is like 80 years old now.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: So this was a different time. But he would go in and say it was a pilot and he would have, like, forged a pilot's license and that type stuff. And then he would end up. He did not fly the plane. Like, he never, like, actually did any. Like, he impersonated being a doctor not to operate on somebody, but to get their paychecks. So that's why it's like a white collar. Like, it was mostly financial, but he ended up. Which was why his stories kind of made it in the movie and as well as in real life, he ended up switching him in an informant for the FBI because he could think how these people that do these type crimes think it's kind of like the same thing as, like, cyber crimes and those type things kind of fall into this. But yeah, he ended up working. So, like in the movie, he ends up working for Tom Hanks. Leo does real life. That actually happened too. He said he was not as suave and stuff as like, Leo was in the movies. But it was definitely a very interesting thing to hear from. From a real life experience that created white collar crime and how he then worked with the FBI because he could get into the mines. But you see that in murder cases and all that too. Like, serial killers will turn and work to solve serial killer cases, but they don't.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: They don't let serial killers out of prison to do that.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Like.
Well, I feel like this man was not a threat to society. Right.
[00:09:32] Speaker B: It depends on the level of crime at, you know, with. When we see involvement in crime in crimes that are not white, it's typically drugs, you know, using people to do CI because they will know the language to use when trying to seek out whatever drug it is from the person they are trying to investigate. So that's when we typically see it. So.
So yeah, so that's white collar crime and I didn't know that story. So that's really cool.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: A lot of times people that commit white collar crimes that are like your high level CEOs and those type, they go to different jails. Sometimes there is. There's different jails that people go to. And honestly that's part of plea negotiation and some of these things is what jail am I going to go to?
Because yeah, it's. They're nicer jails, they're cushier jails. And if y' all watch the White Lotus, the third season that just came out, spoiler alert if you haven't fast forward. But you know, that's what the whole dad.
The dad from Ewan, right. He went to Duke.
Yeah, pretty much. They had committed fraud year. He. It seems like he didn't, but his business partner did and he knew about it and didn't report it and they were trying to call and make deals with him about, you know, ratting on this person to go against it and everything. But that was white collar crime.
But you still go to jail for it. You may just go to a nicer jail, but typically they're not crimes that hurt people. It hurts you financially.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: Like a rest of society as much in the sense of you're not out.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah. You're not a physical threat.
[00:11:21] Speaker A: And so they do go to different jails. But that's the whole thing with Anna Delvey and kind of some of her stuff. She pretty much. There's an awesome Netflix show. It's not a documentary, it's like a drama show that went about her. But she pretty much committed fraud. That is all she did. She'd get a ton of money. She would go to banks and produce false documents and they'd wire her funds as like a loan and she never should have done it.
And she would go and like stay at hotels or go to like jewelry stores, all these different things. And like say, well, I'll wire you the funds and like commit wire fraud. She would get the loan she shouldn't get. So everything she did was not like, she wasn't out killing people.
She's not, you know, we're not worried about her doing Those things. And so like with her, the government can charge her with fraud because of what she's done.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: And she do this for before getting caught.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: Years. Like she did it for years.
And she. Well, she had a fake name and all that stuff too. But also like she did it for years and she did not go to jail for hardly any time. She went. She's been on house arrest. How she affords house arrest, I don't know. But literally I don't think she was in prison for more than like a year.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: And I also think.
And this is from lawyer, lawyer Lori when she was talking about the. Not the Murdochs. Geez, the Chrisleys, it. If it's in federal court, which I imagine this was it. Like they have guidelines for sentencing and a lot of it depends on the amount that was stolen as far as how much time they get. But I remember her saying when the Chrisleys were convicted, it goes by a lot of times the amount will have a big impact on the sentencing guidelines.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean this is the type of stuff like you're right, it's what a lot of famous people like the Chrisleys are like the real Housewife.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: Like we're supposed to have gotten like 10 years. So I think it's just a lot more money. They were accused of stuff.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: But so. And another thing about Anna Dely, she's not a US citizen. So she's actually.
I don't know what's happening. I was googling to see what's happening with her deportation, but she's still currently I think so let me see. I can't remember. I know she's not a US citizen.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: That's interesting because I know we've always been told by immigration attorneys that any crime of dishonesty will get a client deported. And so if they are sentenced to any time, from my understanding, once they complete that sentence, then they are deported from the jail.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: She's been house arrest in New York.
So I mean, yes, I have heard where like people have been that aren't citizens have been deported for things that are minor crime.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: Shoplifting. We've had a client deported for shoplifting.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: So she was sentenced to four to 12 years in prison and then find $24,000, which is hardly nothing. And she's ordered to pay restitution to her victims.
That was her sentence. And but realistically I do not think she actually stayed in jail but maybe a year and she is still. And she is out on house arrest. She was set. She's German. She was set to be deported, but she's actually never been deported. From what I can tell, she is still living in New York on house arrest.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: It's really frustrating on my end, just to be honest.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: Think shows you how white collar crimes can be treated very differently than, like, your other crimes. And also that. We'll see. Here's. I guess this is why I wanted to bring this up, and I want to know what your perspective on all this is. You are not supposed to make money from committing a crime.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:13] Speaker A: If O.J. simpson wrote a memoir and he talked about committing the crime, and that's the only reason we bought that book, that money should not go to him, and that money should go to, like, his victims. And there's. His situation was really complicated on how his money was done, because I think.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: You wrote, like, a book of if I had done it or something. Yeah. Okay. Anyways, go ahead.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: But in here. So after all this, Anna Delvey, the only reason she's famous is because she is this heiress that she claimed to be an heiress that frauded everybody. That is her claim to fame. And yet she went on Dancing with the Stars.
How is that okay? Like, I guess from, like, your perspective, is she not making money from her crime by going on and she wore her freaking ankle monitor on Dancing with the Stars?
[00:16:00] Speaker B: For me, it's not okay on multiple levels. So, one, you're not a star. You know, so first off, I do like Dancing with the Stars. I think if you are famous because you have committed these crimes, you're not a star. And, you know, Karen Reed was found not guilty, you know, of murder. And I. I really don't think she did it, but I wouldn't even want to see her on Dancing with the Stars. Like, she's. She's famous because of that. She's. She's not a celebrity. And for me, Anna Delvey is worse because she was convicted of these crimes.
She is guilty of them. So for me, you're not a star. You're not a celebrity. Like, O.J. simpson is infamous celebrity. But he was like, yeah, and I want to, like, he was a celebrity. And so before this, OJ Simpson was still well known. He was still a celebrity. So, like, if he had been found not guilty, if he really didn't do it and he didn't end up in prison and he was on Dancing with the Stars, like, you know, whatever, if we. If he did not murder his wife, you know, fine, because he was a celebrity before then. But that's not the case here.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: Like, the grizzlies Go on Dancing with the Stars.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: They were famous before. They were celebrities before.
Correct.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: Their. Their crimes did not. Honestly, their crimes took away a little bit of their fame because they lost some money from like their shows and all that stuff. But they were truly famous celebrities. Of Chris Chrisley went on Dancing with.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: The Stars, I wouldn't have an issue. Yeah. Because also, because if that, if they had just not gone to jail and proceeded with life as normal, it would have not shocked me to see them on that show. Right.
But Anna Delvey was only on that show because she was made famous by these crimes. So first off, that bothers me.
And two, like, she's still serving her sentence, I'm assuming, because she's got this ankle monitor on. And I just don't think that is good public policy, I guess.
I mean, you're giving her this money and giving her this exposure when she hasn't even finished serving her sentence. So that bothers me too. It really bothers me that she is still in this country. When I have seen holds on my clients for magistrate level offenses that carry less than 30 days and she had a sentence of four to 12 years and she's still in New York.
That really bothers me. And you know, I'm. I'm just going to say it. I do believe it's because she's white and pretty and pretty.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: I mean, she's not beautiful, but she definitely holds.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: She's white, pretty and German. She's. She's not brown and Hispanic. And I think somebody that was Hispanic and not Caucasian would have already been gone for those crimes. I, I truly believe that.
I can't make sense of why she's still here with those crimes. And if there's an immigration attorney that's watching this episode and can explain it to us, please do. I'd love to know if I'm wrong. Please tell me that I'm wrong. But that just from my knowledge of immigration law, that does not make sense to me. And I don't think it makes sense public policy either. If you're going to deport somebody for shoplifting less than $2,000, how is she still here?
[00:19:14] Speaker A: Well, and I think the hard part with her, yes, she's not.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: And making money off thing for what.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: She did, it really kind of disappointed me. Disney and ABC did that by having her on there because yeah, it was definitely a money grab by them because she left the first week and I'm.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Like, I feel like nobody wanted her there either.
[00:19:33] Speaker A: Well, I think Disney had planned to have her go the first week. Like, I mean, you can say people call voting all this stuff, but, you know, deep down they keep the people that make the money on the show. They got her for the attention grab and then realized it wasn't a good thing because she's a terrible person. And they got rid of her and I think they really did it. So people would tune into that first episode to see Anna Delvey out there with her ankle monitor. And it really bothered me that they did that. Like, I just felt, you know, if you'd had Johnny Depp on there, he had like. I know he was like, you know, going through all his civil stuff at the time that would not have bothered me much for one that's civil. But agreed, like, it was very much because she. They were playing off that fame that Netflix show definitely gave her. And I have heard where people have been divorced. I was talking to somebody and she said her husband is actually a green card holder. Is. She's married to him. He's British.
He's not.
He. He's working on getting a citizenship now, supposedly. I think he wants to. But she was telling me like she had heard that a woman got in trouble for something very minimum, like she went back to the Philippines and then she was coming back here and she was a green card holder, not a citizen, but she was married to a US citizen and she had issues and got detained because of like a traffic ticket and something not paying a speed in fine or something. Something very minimal.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: The scheme of things. But yes. And then you see Anna Delvey, who is.
And this woman was Filipino. She was of, you know, that descent.
But I feel like Anna Delvey is. Because she's just pretty, I think a lot. Like she's not like one of those people you look at and go, gorgeous, right? Like this well put together pretty girl. And I feel like that plays a part in our justice system because I feel like if you go in there looking like a hag, people aren't going to like you as much as if you go in there. And honestly, I think she holds herself very confidently and I think that plays a part in it too. I think when you can walk into a room and like command a room, it definitely gives you an edge, which it shouldn't.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Like it just how with immigration, like it's supposed.
That just blows my mind.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: I didn't know she wasn't a US citizen.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: There is.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: That just blows my mind, that plea.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: And I don't know if part of this plea, like dealt with that Part of it. I don't know that, but it doesn't seem fair if you can plead that you couldn't, that immigration will say, we won't depart you even though, you know, you stole millions of dollars from financial institutions and individuals.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: Lauren, we have already discussed on this show where, you know, I asked if somebody should be deported with a pending criminal charge. You know, and that has happened. People have been deported for, you know, allegations of horrible crimes and their victims never see closure.
You know, they should have been. There should have been consequences if that person were found guilty of the horrible crimes. And now they're not going to be because they were deported. Like, so this just doesn't even make sense. Like you're going to deport somebody and not give a victim closure before even serving any kind of sentence. You just deport them instead. So they don't even serve any kind of time for what they did do, but what somebody did do and they're convicted of and they're still here.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: It is crazy how all that works. And I won't, I guess that kind of, I think, wraps us up because I don't want to go into all her problems. You all know that. But I think give us your thoughts, like direct message us, like send us an email, let us know your thoughts on this. Because how do you feel about her still being here and other people being deported for less serious things or how do you feel about her Dancing with the Stars when she made money off her crime? So, yeah, let us know what you think. We'd love to hear from you on this. We may even stick a poll up on our Instagram or something in the future. But definitely let us know if you're.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: An immigration attorney, please reach out. We'd love to do a follow up episode and maybe there's differences with immigration on the federal level and state. I only do state law, so, you know, clearly not competent on the federal level. So, yeah, please reach out if this is a type of law that you do and you can help us make sense.
Sense of all.
So, all right, that wraps up this episode. I'm not sure who we're diving into next week. Me and Lauren, we'll talk about it and we'll let y' all know and we will see y' all next Friday.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: Bye.
