Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: It's Lacey, and I'm Lauren, and welcome.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: To another episode of the Llamas Podcast.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: And today, we are continuing our Homicide for the Holidays. So me and Lacy are each going to talk about two different cases that involve murder around the holidays.
And we're just going to skip the question, I think this week. I have one. I have one. Okay, I have your question.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: So it's kind of already answered between us, but I thought it would be interesting to pose it here. So one thing that me and Lauren were actually discussing, a text message, is if someone is accused of a crime, not yet convicted of a crime, should they go ahead. If they're here illegally, should they be deported? And we're not getting into whether somebody should be deported or not. They're going to be deported, but should the deportation wait until the criminal case is disposed of, or should they have to. What I say first. Hold on. So have to wait until it's disposed of or just go ahead and be deported and not even full with it.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: And for me, like, what my thought process, I guess it does sometimes depend on the victim, but also, like, that's my tax dollars going to somebody that's going to be deported anyways. Like your. I mean, I guess the thing is, like, why waste the money on keeping somebody here that's going to be gone anyways in our facilities, in our jails, with our staff, especially for things like drugs and things like that. That.
Yeah, stuff that. Yeah.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: And I.
So for me, if it's drugs, right? If they're going to be deported, they were arrested for some type of drugs, and no matter what they're. They're going to be deported or why wait for the criminal case to play out? The chemical analysis can take months and months. So if they're going to be deported just based on being here illegally, then I don't think we need to wait for that criminal case to play out. For me, it changes when there are violent felonies involving a victim. So, for example, I think that if someone is arrested for murder, if somebody is arrested for csc, if someone is arrested for, like, you know, kidnapping, maybe a high burglary, then that the victim should get their day in court.
And whether they're convicted or not, most likely they're going to be deported if they're not here legally, you know, But I do think that victims deserve some closure. And I aware of, you know, some cases that have, you know, the prosecutors have had to say, hey, I'm so sorry, there's nothing else I can do. They Deported the defendant and your case is over. And I just don't think there's closure there. And so even if they get a significant prison sentence and they're kept here, I think to get victims closure, it's worth it to do that until they are deported or maybe they're not. Maybe they spend the rest of their lives in prison. But I would rather, I would rather them be there than deported if it gives the victims more closure. I guess maybe if the victim says, you know what, I don't care if they're going to be deported, just deport them and not go through with it, then I would be okay with that. But if a victim is like, no, they should spend time in prison and I want them in prison. Like, I would want to honor those wishes if they are convicted, of course. So that's kind of my two cents on it.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: And I think a lot of it would depend. I mean, like if they have all these warrants here, if they go back to where they're from, do they have warrants there where they're going to end up in jail there so that their country.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: Well, some people come here as kids and so like there's nothing there. So some people, if they're arrested for like a violent, horrible crime, sometimes deporting them is a win for them.
[00:04:01] Speaker B: I think it also depends. There's a lot of stuff with international law and criminal law and like what happens here. If the other country is going to put them in jail for what happens here, I mean, it's.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: But then you have to get a conviction. They're not going to put them in jail there unless there's a conviction.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Well, no, some countries there's no justice at all. You don't have to be convicted to go to jail. I mean, if you're going to some third world.
[00:04:25] Speaker A: I know, but I can't imagine them saying, okay, well, in America, you, you killed this girl. They say you weren't convicted for it. We really don't know, but you know, we're just gonna see. I mean, how long would you put him in? I mean, he hasn't been.
It's just very complicated. I just think victims would have a say in it and that I should not just switch, swoop in and do what they want to do. I think we have victims Bill of rights for a reason. Victims don't get to dictate their case, but they do get to have a say. And I think in victim cases they should be able to say what their wishes are. And I should take it into consideration.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: But on another side, if they go ahead and get deported, they're never going to be able to legally come back in the US So they don't have the fear of ever running into this person where maybe you put them in prison here. ICE forgets about them, they get out and you run into them on the street, you, you won't ever have that fear again if they're no longer allowed in this country. So I think, see, I don't know.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: I would be like, well, if they, they can, they've gotten here illegally before, maybe they could do it again. Like, at least if they were in prison, I would know where they were. Well, like, and you can get noticed when they get released.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Some of the people that are being deported did not get here illegally. They are here. Like, I'm not going in all the deportation stuff. Like if you've been arrested and you were here on a visa, they revoke your visa. So like you are not here illegally, you are here illegally in the state with a visa, but you did something illegal. So therefore they revoke your visa. So like there are plenty of people who come in properly, but then do something. Now do I. Like, that's a whole different side of what's the level of the crime. Obviously if you're caught littering, I do not think that should have your deported. But if you are caught with high level drugs being a drug mule pretty much or your account murdering somebody, like that's different.
Oij walked.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like I said, we're not getting into to that part of it. But let us know what y' all think. Should ICE take. Should the victims bill of rights also be considered in cases where ICE is involved is, is pretty much the, the question. So let us know yalls thoughts.
How much, you know, should victims be able to vocalize, you know, whether or not they want to, you know, wait for the criminal process to play out or deport and you know how, how you might feel if, if you were in that situation. So you know, not getting into like all when you should or shouldn't just specifically that.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: And you're here and been convicted of a crime.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Not being convicted, just charged.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: You're here and you have committed a crime and been charged of it. And we'll also add in that you also have warrants where you have jumped other trials too. I think like, I guess it's going to depend on the legal record to how people have different opinions, like if you got warrants a mile long. But switching gears, we are talking about more homicide in the holidays And I'll tell you a little about my case, which really broke my heart.
And it has some different issues in the legal system too because like the ones we talked about, the one I talked about last week, there was no trial because everybody was dead. Like, you know, in that situation, this one is a case and it was, if you want to Google it or anything, it happened about 20 minutes outside Seattle in a town I think called Carnation. And if you want to Google it, what it got labeled is carnage, incarnation.
It's a very, very sad case. And really there's not a whole, there wasn't a whole lot of investigation to it because it was very obvious who did this. So, so there is this man and woman, they're in their 60s, they have three children, it's Christmas Eve and their youngest daughter, who is 29 at the time, lives in a trailer behind them. They're out in rural like Washington, like they're not in Seattle, they're outside in the country.
They keep to themselves a lot. And their daughter lives on. Their daughter and her boyfriend lives on the trailer on. I think they have like a few acres, so it's a good chunk of land. And then so Christmas Eve, the daughter and her boyfriend come to the house about 6 o' clock or 4 o' clock I think sometime in the afternoon. And pretty much the son is talk the daughter's boyfriend. So the son in law is talking to the mom in the kitchen to distract her while the daughter shoots the dad point blank. The son in law then shoots the.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Mom.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Just flat out murders them. And then after that the girl's brother is coming because it's Christmas Eve, so he was coming to his mom's house. Their last names are Anderson, I'm pretty sure. I tried to write their names down and then I didn't. So I'm bad at names. But anyways, so the brother and I think his name was Scott, I'm pretty sure it was Scott. Scott and his wife and his two kids, his five year old and three year old.
And I think that's why I hit home to me I have two kids and those are their ages.
They are coming to visit, you know, grandma for Christmas Eve dinner. They come. So the parents were murdered. The daughter, I think her name was Michelle, the daughter and her boyfriend, his name was Joe. They clean up, they drag the parents dead bodies into a shed, clean it up. And when the brother and his wife and kids walk in, they just point blank shoot the brother. The second he walks in, they shoot the wife. And in this time she calls 911 and she dies. But 91 1, her call hangs up. Like they cut. This was in 2007. So they cut the phone line, the call hangs up, that you hear her yelling on the 911 tape. No, not the kids.
So pretty much the son's been shot, his wife has been shot. And then they shoot point blank the five year old and three year old, her niece and nephew, her baby niece and nephew. Now there is an older sibling, but she is not there because she is sick. Otherwise she was going to be murdered too.
So the 911 call happened. So they send the cops out to this land. Well, they get to the land and there's a gate on the driveway and it's locked. So the 911 cops just don't go in or do anything. They just say, well it was locked and leave.
I never could find out what actually happened to them after this. I'm guessing they were fired though, because obviously you did a job.
But then. So the grandma, her name was Judith I think or something like that, didn't show up for work the day after Christmas or two days after Christmas. And so one of her best friends came to the house to make sure she was okay, her co worker and friend and saw the two bodies lying on the floor. She immediately calls the cops. The cops come out to investigate. And while they're coming out to investigate, the daughter that killed them and her boyfriend show up and they tell them what happened. She's not shocked or anything.
And then honestly they go and confess. Right after that they both, they take them in separate rooms, they both confess, they both admit, they say who killed who. So they both are charged with six degree, six counts of first degree murder. And in Seattle at the, in Washington at the time the death penalty was available, they did confess. Now they didn't go to this happened in 2007, they did confess.
They did not go to trial on this till 2014 is when the boyfriend went to trial. And the prosecutors, seven years.
Seven years.
The prosecutors tried the death penalty. They wanted the death penalty for him.
The jury came back guilty, but not for the death penalty. And so the only option at sentencing at that point was six consecutive life sentences for him was the option the judge had. That's what he got because the jury didn't find for death penalty.
So and at this time there were a lot of other like murder trials going on and the juries decide and none of the juries had came back for the death penalty. We have to date. This is Washington. It is A more left leaning state. So typically they're not going to be as death penalty friendly as down here in the south.
And so they ended up taking the death penalty off the table for the daughter that killed everyone. But she still went through with a trial.
She was found guilty. She tried to do an insanity plea and those type things, but none of that flew. She was found guilty.
They six counts again, both life sentences. They both are serving their life sentences to this day.
What was interesting, I mean it's really sad because pretty much when they got to motive, the reason she killed her parents was because they asked her to pay rent for being the mobile home on the land. They wanted rent and she said her brother owed her back $40,000 from a loan.
So that was the reason for murdering them. Was a legit. Just money was the only motive, she said. And this was in her confession.
For $40,000 you murdered your brother, his wife and your niece and nephew.
From people talking in the community, they said that, you know, they all kind of kept to themselves so they didn't know a ton about him. But the mom and dad have been hardworking individuals and that the daughter and the parents, even though she lived on their land, had a very strange relationship.
So but at the end of the day, her motive was money. The boyfriend just went along with it, I think because he loved her, he did it with her.
Neither one of them have the option of parole or anything like that, which I definitely don't think they deserve it because they just shot and killed. They would do it, she would do it again.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: I mean it was all kill kids for money. I.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Well, they killed. The reason they said they killed the kids was just because they didn't want any witnesses. And since that.
Another reason though was well, they saw their parents murdered so they're going to be scarred for life. So we should just kill them?
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Oh my gosh, no.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: So pretty much that was their reasoning.
It was just a really overall sad case. And then I think there's this one in like for me.
They both confessed without being forced to confess. They just, it wasn't one of those situations where they were, they went in and right away confessed, I think because they knew they were caught and there was no other way. Like nobody else would have motive to do this. They knew they were on the property, they had been caught, they were trying to flee to Canada, but they had a flat tire or something like that and had to come back.
But anyways, the State spent over $5 million on her legal defense because she had nothing. So she had a public defender.
His legal defense cost over $4 million because once again, he had nothing.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: Dollars.
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Their Trials. It was $9 million that these people costed the state in these trials. I just found it interesting. They went ahead, I guess for me, I would have went ahead and taken the death penalty off the table for the guy and just said, if you'll just do six life sentences, we won't go through with the trial. We'll just take the death. I mean, he's never coming out. Yeah, but no, they spent that much money for her. She was trying an insanity defense.
And so I guess I see, like, her reason for going through, but, yep, it was just a completely disturbing and sad case that all this happened on Christmas Eve. Over $40,000 in rent.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: And you make an interesting point. I think sometimes, you know, prosecutor. Prosecutors do take into account the finances it's going to take to try the case. And we discussed this with the Brian Kohlberger case because, like, they. We didn't know. I mean, you would imagine with the evidence that they had, that he would be convicted. But if he's willing to take a life sentence, do you really want to roll the dice and have a whole trial just for the death penalty?
[00:16:55] Speaker B: Especially in a state like Washington, which I know it was 20 years ago almost, so maybe it was different. But overall, Washington is not a state that gives the death penalty a lot. So did you really want to go for that there?
[00:17:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So, like, you know, I think our prosecutors sometimes get so much hate, but this is part of their job, and it's probably not a fun part of their job, but they do have to take into consideration these things, you know, and it's good for all of us taxpayers to take this into consideration. We're not saying we want criminals to get off easily that have committed horrific, terrible crimes, the worst crimes you could commit. But, you know, if it saves that money and we still get a conviction in life sentence, or they can't do this to anyone again, you know, you kind of have to look at that.
So, yeah, interesting point.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: It was just a very sad situation. But I definitely think in that case, if I'd been a prosecutor, if he's willing to say, I'll go to jail for the rest of my life, no possibility of parole in a state like Washington, I wouldn't have pushed for the death penalty there.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: Right. Yeah.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: And then they did. I think they did learn their lesson, though, because they took it off the table for her. So while there was still a lot of fees incurred, they had to go through with that because she was pushing an insanity defense, Right? And they were not going to give her a plea. Like, you killed six people.
Cold blood killing.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: Right?
[00:18:21] Speaker B: They're not giving you a plea. So I understand that one they had to go forward, but I think the other one, they could have saved a lot of funds.
And I don't know, maybe they did talk to the victims like we talked about, because, you know, the wife of the brother, her parents were there, her siblings were there, the other sibling was there, where she had murdered the parents and, you know, her other brother.
And then there were family members and everything there. So I don't know.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: So my story takes place on the complete opposite side of the United States and Pennsylvania.
So this woman named Jean, her family gets together for Christmas Eve. They do, like, a big dinner. Everybody comes, all of her sisters, brothers, and everything, while they're waiting. And she doesn't show up. And they're like, that doesn't happen. And Gene was supposed to be coming with her two daughters and her granddaughter. She had a new baby granddaughter. So they're all supposed to be coming over for dinner. And they didn't come. So they waited and waited and waited. They never showed up for dinner. They're like, okay, what's going on?
So they call the police, and the police go and do, like, a welfare check to see if they are okay. And they saw that, like, the garage was, like, broken.
And so that's when the cop was like, I knew something was wrong then. So, you know, he's calling brother for their names. It was Gene. And her two daughters were Victoria and Izzy. And so, like, he's calling for Gene doesn't answer. So he goes inside the house, and he finds a woman dead from a gunshot wound in the kitchen.
And so he's like. And then he starts hearing, like, a noise upstairs. And he's like, oh, my gosh. The person that did this is still in the house. So he's got backup. So him and back up, like, you know, slowly go in. They go into one of the rooms where they hear the noise. It's a baby.
And so there is a dead. Another dead woman with a baby, alive, like, grabbing, like, the mom's shirt. It was her mother. It was Victoria.
And so the officer that is back up gets the baby.
They see another door kind of open. So the other officer grabs the baby, calls ems, tells him, we have a baby. We need to get medical checked. So the ambulance comes to check out the baby. The other officer goes into another room and finds Izzy Dead. The other adult daughter.
So Gene's the mom, Izzy, Victoria's her daughters, all of them murdered. But the grandbaby was okay.
Okay in the situation, being alive.
And so they, you know, close off the scene so that way they can get the homicide detectives in to start collecting evidence and stuff.
All were killed by the same gun. All were killed by, you know, the same way. They were all shot. So they. They start digging into, like, the past.
So they go to tell Jean's husband, that's estranged, which is the girl's father, and he does get upset and emotional and stuff, and, like, you know, they're murdered. And then they find out Victoria, they look into her past. So she got pregnant when she was 20, and she was dating this guy not very long, but ended up getting pregnant. But it didn't work out. But they looked into him because, like, well, the baby's alive, but she's dead. Maybe he did this for custody, right? To try to get the baby. So they look into him. He cooperates fully, gives his alibi. They're able to validate it, like, completely. He's ruled out.
Well, Victoria and him have broke up, and she had started dating another guy. And that guy felt like he was the baby's father. I mean, he was always with the baby. He spent a lot of time with the baby, very close. And also, he was a locksmith.
And so they're like, okay, maybe it could have been him, because they had broken up, and they were, like, on and off a lot. So they had broken up again, and she'd moved back in with her mom with a baby. And so they're like, okay, maybe he's upset that, like, he feels like this baby's his and she's left him, you know, so he's lost her and the baby. And he's a locksmith. He could, like, break into a place easily.
So they go and talk to him, and, you know, they're able to see that rock solid alibi again, so it's not him. So they're like, okay, what is going on? Well, they go and start talking to the family, and actually, there, the estranged father had been arrested for molesting the daughters.
So two weeks from their murder, there was supposed to be a trial starting. So before this all happened, the oldest one, the one with the baby, Victoria, she had called her aunt, and she was like, oh, my gosh, he's done it to Izzy. He's done it to Izzy. He promised he wouldn't touch Izzy, and she's like, what? What are you Talking about. And that's when she disclosed that her father had been molesting her for years and that she. He told her as long as he kept it a secret, he wouldn't do it to her sister.
So she kept it a secret that whole time because he said he wouldn't do it to her little sister. So she was trying to protect her sister. So. But at some point, I guess it had come out that he also molested her, her sister too.
So at that point they, you know, she told her aunt, they told mom, mom and him split. She was able to get a protective order from him to where he wasn't allowed in the home or around any of the family. And he was charged with raping his two daughters.
So that all came to light. And so they questioned him and he like denied everything, of course.
Well, they call in his brother to question him. So because that was his alibi was his brother, he said that he was with his brother all night long. Well, they call in the brother and the brother, you know, at first, like not giving any information, but then they show him the crime scene photos and he gets very upset.
So at that point he tells them that on Christmas, the night before Christmas Eve, that his brother said that he wanted to get his dog back from the wife in the kit, like that's where the dog was, was at the family home and he wanted to get his dog and could he take him to get the dog. So they go to the neighborhood, he gets just parked down the street. And he said, I could tell he was really nervous. And so he said he was very nervous when he got out of the car and he was very nervous when he got back. But he said he went to get the dog. And I can't remember if he said he came back with the dog or not, but. But eventually that's how they tied the dad to the crime for killing his wife and his two children.
The brother did disclose where the murder weapon was as well. And so they were able to find the murder weapon and match it, however.
So the brother pled guilty to the crimes and he got like, I think a 25 year sentence is his max. And he cooperated against, with police and the prosecutor against his brother. His brother denied everything and still does.
He went to trial and he was convicted of the murders. He was not convicted of the rape allegations. And most likely that's because like of course the witnesses, he killed them all. So. So he was convicted of the murders and he was sentenced to death.
So far, from what I can see, the death Sentences have been upheld. He still maintains his innocence. And on all of it, the rape and the murder say he didn't do it. They say that the police did not look into other suspects enough.
But while his case was pending, he tried to hire a hitman.
So they have recorded conversations where he was trying to get.
Trying to pay someone to kill the grandbaby's dad and leave a suicide note confessing to the murders and that he did it to try to get the baby. But then, like, you know, guilt came over him, and so he killed himself and left the note. So the dad's name was Frank. Frank. And his code name in the calls was the Tank.
So that's how they were able to figure out who he was trying to kill. But he was actually dealing with a police officer, not a hitman. In the phone calls I was about.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: To ask, how did. I guess, like, how did that. Like, how did the police find out?
[00:27:41] Speaker A: But I get like, all jail phone calls are recorded. So, like, you're right. Yeah, every.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: So everything he was saying.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And since he. I think this was. That was. That happened when he was still pending trial. So, you know, they were listening because they were going to see if he would confess and make their case stronger.
But no, and I think he was convicted of that, too. He was charged with that. I'm not. Don't quote me on that part. I know he was going to be done. The murders, they got life sentences and that. But, yeah, he tried to hire somebody to kill the grand.
The granddaughter's biological father for that.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: So did they put, like, somebody in jail, like, as an art to say, oh, I know a hitman.
It was really the cop.
[00:28:22] Speaker A: So whenever I've heard of these things happening before, typically the cellmate or somebody around, like somebody, like, inquires to somebody, and then that person snitches to a guard.
So then they come back and say, oh, yeah, I've got a name and number.
Here you go. Because they snitch because if they get benefits, they get benefits. They could get, like, lesser time and stuff.
[00:28:49] Speaker B: Or even if they can't get lesser time, they might get better treatment.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: Like, oh, you move to a different facility.
So every time I've ever seen this happen, the way it comes about is they snitch to a guard. That's what the person's trying to do. And so they set it up to see if it's true and use law enforcement as the hitman. And I had quotation marks there, Mark.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: Just go ahead and like. I mean, like, I Mean, if I was that cellmate or if I was that person and heard it, like, obviously it's terrible what they're doing. If I can get some benefit from it. Yeah, Might as well go snitch on that one.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:31] Speaker B: But I don't know, though, because did all the other people in the jail turn on? But you never know who really snitched in all this.
That's an awful situation, though. That's just.
I feel like so many of these homicides that we've talked about have all been family situations. Like the one I know when you.
[00:29:51] Speaker A: Were saying yours, I was like, so far we have told four stories, and three out of the four have been family annihilations.
[00:30:00] Speaker B: Right. Like, it was last week. Mine was like, the ex husband goes crazy this time. A sibling does it.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: And even I was an ex husband or soon to be ex husband, estranged husband.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Well, like in the other case from last week, it wasn't a random act of killing or violence. It was best friends. Like, so all this is just really sad.
But that's our hominy. Oh, I can't talk. That's our holidays for the homicide today.
Oh, my gosh. Homicide for the holidays.
It has been a week. My mind is done, My brain is done. I was supposed to have a trial yesterday, and it got continued because of illness on one of the other sides. And like, we prepped so hard Monday.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: What happened to me, you know, a.
[00:30:52] Speaker B: Couple months ago, I think I was just running. I've been running on adrenaline.
And then like, Monday afternoon, late in the day, I get a call about the other side possibly being in the hospital.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: And.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: And normally I would question kind of some of the time and more, but I know right now the flu, rsv, all that is rampant. So I don't want any of it. So it is what it is. But it's like my brain just was like, nope, we're done.
[00:31:20] Speaker A: Done. Cut off.
Well, yeah, so like we've said, the holidays kind of get everybody's emotions up, which I think with my story, like yours last week definitely was Christmas. Like, I think that triggered him. Your story, I think, was just opportunity and that they were there and convenient.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: I think mine would all be there Christmas Day.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: So I don't think mine would have happened Christmas if the rape trial wasn't coming up. I think really it wasn't necessarily the holidays that triggered them, but it was that. So, you know, I think we kind of see where some of these things are triggered by the holidays, and some of these are just convenience of you know, people being together during that time.
But anyways, stay tuned for next week. We'll have two more stories for you.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: Well, have a good week. Bye.
