Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
And I'm Lauren and welcome to another.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And today we are finishing up Serial Killer September because next week we're going to be in a spooky October. So this is our last week on serial killers and we are doing some South Carolinians here. We are going to talk about Todd Khip and we are going to talk about Pee Wee Gaskins. Both are probably our most two infamous serial killers in the state. But real quick, I want to give a shout out to my friend Aaron, who I believe watches this every week and who made fun of the way we pronounce words last week.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: So, hey, Aaron. And Aaron, I love you dearly and I miss you, but you ain't got room to talk, homegirl, because you just as country as we are, if not worse.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: But we do appreciate your support and watching and we love you and thank you for watching us every week and maybe we will have you on as a guest when we talk about something sometime.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: If we do that. I'm totally doing a segment of words for her to pronounce.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: Maybe that can be like a. Oh, a random thing we start doing like, hold up a word, say this.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, Myra listens to us all the time, too, and she will comment and post. Myra was our roommate, a long friend of ours. I mean, we've known her PR almost all our lives probably.
Yeah, she's really invested and we lived with her in college. And that's the State House calling me now. I'm telling Lauren I'm supposed to speak at the State House next week. They're calling me now. I'll call them back after talking about it would get into politics potentially.
So I will let you know after the recording.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: You can give us a brief synopsis.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: Okay. The new abortion bill.
So I will be going to speak in opposition of that and I will just leave it at that.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: Oh, I didn't know this was something like a criminal, where you were speaking like, you know, about reforms in our laws.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: So one thing that the ban will, the, the, the new bill wants to do is be able to prosecute women for abortions as well as being able to prosecute people who assist women in traveling out of state. So there are things that would cross over into the criminal world. So the new bill would allow for prosecution against somebody who aided and abetted somebody with an abortion out of state. So there are.
That is some of the things that bother me that are not political based.
Well, maybe they are. I don't know if you feel that if some people may feel that it is, honestly. But as a criminal defense attorney, those are, those are some really concerning things.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: So if I just drove somebody to a clinic in North Carolina, I could be arrested here in South Carolina for driving them to a North Carolina clinic.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Of course, it depends on how the statute is worded.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:18] Speaker B: I don't know what type of involvement they are looking to criminalize.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: You know, like, you know, an Amtrak which takes you across the U.S. you leave here. Is your Amtrak driver responsible because they aided and abetted you getting into a different state? Yeah, for sure it is.
[00:03:42] Speaker B: And like, if somebody asked me for money and I don't know what it's for, and I give them a check and that they asked me for the amount it's going to cost and that's what, you know, I gave money for.
I mean, you don't have the mens rea. Right. I wouldn't have the intent to do that because I don't know what it's for.
But also, if I did know what it's for and I paid for it, I don't like the government telling me what I can do with my own money and my own person.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: From another point of view, like, say you do go into North Carolina and you go. Because North Carolina is very different on those laws. So, like, you go into North Carolina, you get an abortion performed at like the women's clinic. Does South Carolina have the right to go get your medical records to go into your privacy to see what procedure you had done?
[00:04:31] Speaker B: That is what the new ban is as well. They want to be able to criminalize women who get abortions out of state. So that is part of it as well.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: But does North Carolina have to comply and give them your records? I'm just using North Carolina just because.
[00:04:44] Speaker B: Sure, yeah, I, I don't. I wouldn't think so because we are separate entities. And I don't know how South Carolina would.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Would fight that honestly into like interstate, which is the US Constitution. So then we are getting back into the whole issue of states rights because then you're taking another state's rights away.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: Away. Correct.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: Carolina say. Well, that'll be interesting. I know that is, we normally don't talk politics and I really don't think that was ever really political. That is how a law is going to impact the criminal justice system realistically.
[00:05:22] Speaker B: And how people on both sides are going to be able to speak. Right. So I will be able to give reasons not just as, as a mother, as a woman, but as a criminal defense attorney. I Think it's important to hear some concerns like we were just talking about now with how you're going to enforce stuff to make things right and fair. That's clearly questionable with some of the things they want to do.
And the other side will get to voice their opinions as well.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: I think the energy like in general a really slippery slot because think about marijuana. So I get like for drug testing, if I go to Colorado and smoke pot, my company has a no pot smoking. Yeah, that's completely different. That's your private work. But this would be like, hey, I went to Colorado, I got high and because I got high in Colorado and I come back to South Carolina, they arrested me for getting high in Colorado. Like you're really.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: Just taking out the abortion content. That would be the same. I feel like you could use that abortion argument to change it into other arguments.
[00:06:24] Speaker B: Sure. And so and here's another thing.
The, the new law would ban abortions for. For women who are raped. So if someone is raped and they're forced to keep the child, does that terminate your rapist parental rights?
Could family court if, if the rapist father wanted to be involved in their child's life, does can they file in family court to cope parent would you be forced to co parent with your rapist?
I mean the standard and family court is, you know to terminate rights clear and convincing evidence.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: And family court in South Carolina, which I think in most places is a court of equity so they do have a lot more leeway and stuff. But what if this whole issue I guess would be the thing, you know, what if this rapist was a standup person and everything but the right like we people can be multifaceted. So he could be like this great person but rape somebody.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: Then they're not a great person. But on paper, you know what I'm saying?
[00:07:37] Speaker B: Sure.
And I'm not, you know, but there's so many factors that just go. Go into this. You know, what if both of them were for were impaired but the woman was more impaired, you know, and there's just really tense emotions. But then you're bringing in this law and then you're exposing yourself to potent. It's just messy.
It can just be really messy.
[00:08:03] Speaker A: That's how we see how laws like we're not in a bubble. We're just criminal or just family or just like estate work. We are all.
We all took while as attorneys we really only practice in one area. Laws touch more than just that one area because life is complex and, and messy.
[00:08:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I don't know. I don't know that a fam. I don't know that every family court would terminate somebody's rights based on that. What if it was dismissed because the victim just couldn't come to court and she was just so upset and just.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: Couldn'T think not guilty. But.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: But then the woman still doesn't want anything to do with him because she still stands by what she said. And then there's this child in your first. I just can't fathom that.
So anyway, so these are some of the issues that I would like to our lawmakers to consider when voting on this bill.
[00:09:02] Speaker A: So that'll be interesting to see how this passes. But back to our topic today is I think one of the biggest, like, creepiest serial killers for me is Todd Kohlhepp. Because literally, I thought you were gonna.
[00:09:15] Speaker B: Say Pee Wee at first.
No, creepier than Peewee.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: Well, Cohep was right here. I live in the upstate of South Carolina.
He was right here in Spartanbury County. My law partner lives in the neighborhood near where he used to live. My old boss from Converse, who probably will never watch this show because he doesn't have social media or anything, he backed up to Todd Co helps. So, like, I think, because, like. And also Ty Co Help was a realtor and at this time.
Right.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: Convicted sex offender.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Yes. And. But he was a realtor, so I used to do real estate law. So, like, this definitely touched on more areas, I think, because I literally could have seen him in Target and what made him pick the people he picked and didn't could have picked anybody, you know, Like, I think the girl he picked was like his waitress at Waffle House and they thought, you know, she made fun of him or something. Like, I guess because it hit really close to home for me because while there's murders up here all the time, they don't feel as close to home. Like, especially not in a serial killer way. South Carolina is not a big serial killer area, I guess.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Well, like we've said in this series before, too, we just feel like there's not as many anymore. And honestly, other than Todd K, I can't think of another serial killer we've talked about on the show that wasn' that was during our time, if that makes sense. Like, sure, the Golden State Killer was caught during our time, but his crimes and spree and that fear was in the 70s and 80s and Peewee Gaskins was 70s, 80s, Eileen Warnos was 80s, 90s.
So everything was kind of before we really understood serial killers. Because we were too young.
So I can kind of understand why he would.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: I guess for us there's been more mass murders. We have seen a lot of shootings. We have seen movie theaters.
You know, we've seen.
Dylan Roof was here in South Carolina and, you know, killed innocent people in a church. So we've definitely seen a lot of mass killers.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:31] Speaker A: The serial killer. And I was like, Todd K. Is one that like we talked about, there are a lot of things he did, like coming out as a child, like he was cruel to animals. Like, we've seen all of that.
But the thing that gets me with him is so inside. Like in Spartanburg, we had the super bike. I can't remember the store, but it was the bike murders. And that was pretty much a scene where somebody went in and killed like four people, I believe, working at the bike store. And it did not have the MO Of a serial killer. Like, it was pretty much like the mass murder type situation. Went up and killed one or almost a robbing gone bad type situation. Nothing dealing with what we thought was a serial killer. And then after Todd Co help. So he killed multiple people and had buried them in his backyard. Pretty much. He kept the girl who was still alive and she's actually sued him and in the civil court. And I think that what he had of an estate left but kept her locked up in like a containment type shipping container.
He also posted online, like if you go back now and see like on Amazon reviews and those type things, he posted what he was doing with this shipping container the whole time.
Now he didn't go to trial. He pled guilty in lieu of not getting the death penalty. Pretty much, he did a plea. But I think the thing with me, with him is he is very different because he pretty much did a mass shooting and a serial killing and he kind of had a like the Golden State Killer. It was like he had phases where he did stuff. Like he went dormant for a long time.
And he was not like, you hear about these serial killers blending into society.
I think people were always a little creeped out by him is how it seems from I.
He was a realtor, but he was like one where people like, I feel.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: Like that is a theme though. Like they can fit in. But then also there's a good bit of people that are still like, you're trying a little too.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: There's still something off.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: Because even Ted Bundy, I feel like that was the case with some people. They were like, he's very nice and very, you know, can get along. But there were some creepy moments too. So I felt like that was on par. What bothers me is that he was a convicted sex offender.
And I think we kind of talked about this at one point. Like all rape is bad. I'm not saying that, but I mean this was a pretty brutal.
There were other crimes as well on top of the rape and he was convicted of that and he spent time in prison in that. And at that point someone should not be able to be a realtor because I do think there should be certain checks and balances would be in real life being in real estate.
Because if you're a realtor, you're meeting with people in open spaces, open homes. And I just, I do think there are some crimes with when. Yeah, certain crimes that should bar you from holding a real estate license. You know, if somebody was a drug dealer in their past and they haven't dealt drugs in 10, 15 years, whatever, and they want to be a real. Like that's fine. That doesn't bother me at all.
But I think crime, you know, violent crimes against. Against women specifically or children, I just don't think that's safe for somebody to have a real estate license. The fact that that happened is, is just disgraceful, honestly. And what do we have anything in place to make sure that's not happening again?
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Well, you're supposed like to get your real estate license, you have to apply for. You do a test and everything and then you have to apply for it. So like they have a governing board. Obviously it's not probably as intense as what we go through as attorneys or possibly even doctors, but they probably need to look and do more sled or if they're not. If all they're doing is a sled check and not checking in other states or looking more deeply catch other states.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Though, because I've had, I've asked to have certain charges expunged before on a client and they are sled catch. So their South Carolina thing makes them eligible, but then they pull the full NCIC, which is all states and that makes them ill ineligible because they had a prior year that they either forgot about it because it was so small and so long ago or something like that.
So yeah, sled has access to that. They can run it like that. Solicitors can run an ncic. I'm not allowed into the program, but solicitors can run it and anybody in sled can run it. Any cop can run an NCIC out of state.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: So I guess that's like what I'm saying is like so When I go to apply for like a guardianship for a minor child, all I do is log on to Sledge and put in information.
Like I put in their name and their social and their maiden or AKA and it just gives me a report that would not pull from the other states.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: Catch is $26.
We run those a lot on people, but that is just your South Carolina criminal history.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: So if they're just running that, they will not get anything. They need to up it and ask for a higher run for licensing pretty much is what you're saying.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And they limit who has access to those systems because like I said, I get cases all the time and I need the ncic. Right. Because there are certain diversion programs sometimes my clients are eligible for if they don't have any prior criminal history.
I don't know that unless I have an ncic. But yet they won't give criminal defense attorneys access to the NCIC system.
So I guess maybe they should be able to submit it to sled. If they don't want to give us access to this system, there should be.
[00:17:23] Speaker A: A special way for sled to run it.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Right. And like a place where you submit it for them to run and then them give it back to you and maybe they can like white out or something. Personal information that's on because that's. I do understand some issues with giving like the public access because an NCIC has somebody's Social Security number on it.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: If you're applying to be a realtor, you're already giving them your social. So it's not like that's private.
So.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: If you're convicted of a felony, which he was, you're federally prohibited from owning a firearm. Right. That does show on a sled catch. So if I run somebody's sled catch, I'm pretty sure if, if I run the sled catch, I, I have seen before, this person is federally prohibited from owning a firearm. I mean, maybe it's on there because the felon here. But wouldn't you think if there was a felony out of state, that clause would still be on our sl. Our state sled?
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Well, there should be something because if you're going to buy a gun that should show up nationally, right.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Like and see they can access anything.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Gun dealers, they have to.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: Wouldn't you think? Wouldn't you think they would have be able to access any state.
[00:18:41] Speaker A: I mean, I would think firearms, you have to do the check before they give it to you. So somebody did have a felony. It should show up on whatever they ran on you in their system. I mean, it shouldn't be that hard to have better regulations also, especially like, I know it's hard because in this situation he did have a prior felony. So it should have been called. I will say there's situations where people. I watched this thing on Hulu. It was like a Dateline thing, but it was where a doctor was pretty much a pedophile and he passed all those licenses and everything because. Because nobody knew he was a pedophile at the time. So he shouldn't have got his license if they had known. And obviously when they found out he was a pedophile, they revoked it. But in this situation that should have been known, if you're what you're saying. So he really. I don't know, maybe we need to look into more stuff with LLR here in our state on how people are licensed because you definitely wouldn't want this person being a nurse or anything either if they, you know, have raped somebody.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: And I can't imagine it happening there. I just, I. I feel like with just the real estate, I think they just didn't dig as in depth as they would with a nurse because they're thinking, well, this isn't medical. You know, they did just the $26 sled catch and didn't go any further. But that's not okay, that's not acceptable.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Because it is a position of trust and correct. You know, like. And I think he worked for a company. It wasn't like he had his own real estate firm he was working for. I don't know.
Yeah, they kind of switching gears from him to Pee Wee Gaskins. Pee Wee Gaskins killed a lot more people. Most of who he killed, if y' all don't know, this was usually prostitutes, criminals. He was smart in the way he killed as he killed people that nobody was going to notice they were missing. A lot of times he did kill.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Some people that he knew, but he also killed a lot of strangers.
And my stepdad, my former stepdad, my sister's father claims to have met him. My. Which is possible, but he also lies a lot, so it's also not possible. But he hung around with a rough crowd back in the day. And so I wonder, I wonder if it's true or not.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: Well, with Gaskins, I just was trying to look up. He is from the low part of the state, so he lived down there. It says Florence County. So the low part of the state.
He pretty much, I mean, I think he says he's killed like 80 something people.
[00:21:15] Speaker B: If it's he claimed he was in the hundreds, but they said that that was never substantiated, and they don't really believe him.
But he had.
He did have a rough childhood. He was sexually abused multiple times in multiple different situations.
Apparently he didn't even know his name, his real name, until he was older. So he was always smaller, of small stature, and he got picked on a lot. That's why his name is Pete. That's why they called him Peewee because of how small he was. His real name was Donald Henry Gaskins, but he always went by Peewee. And you know what's crazy? So apparently he claims, like, he did not know his real name Donald until his. His first court appearance when he got in trouble. And my stepdad, former stepdad that claims to know him is the same way. He did not know his real last name until high school.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: I mean, it doesn't surprise me, especially back in the day with this type stuff, because. What? Peewee Gaskins. It was on the 6th. When was his birthday? 1933. And he was killing like, 6. I mean, he probably never seen a burst or two. I mean, it was a different world back then. They didn't have the access to stuff we did. One thing about him, he did get in jail, and then he ended up killing another person while in jail.
Yeah, he also was not.
I think he did. He escape one time, too.
And he also.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: As did my former stepdad.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: Okay, we need some work on our prisons here, because he wasn't death row and he was eventually executed, but it took a long time to execute him because we had a hold on the death penalty during that time. So he was in jail. I mean, he didn't die till 1991, and he'd been sitting in jail for what, 30 years at that point.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Now, I do think he wrote a memoir, and I'm pretty sure my best friend's dad read it, and I think I saw some quotes from his memoir. He can't make money off his crimes. Does he get to dictate who it goes to or. I think you said it goes to the victim's families or something.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: I think the victims. I think, like, you know, like, the victim's families could have done a civil lawsuit to get the fees. I don't really know exactly, because he had so many victims. And, like, at the end of the day, like, I don't know how exactly his part of everything worked.
I'm just trying to look and see it about his. He was named the meanest man in America. Correct.
They only confirmed 15 victims, though, just so we know what was actually confirmed, but he claimed 110.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: And there was one woman that they found her bones. And I do. I don't know if he was convicted of her murder or just connected, but they transported the bones and they got lost and they actually found them this April at College of Charleston.
[00:24:25] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah, there were some reasons. Pee Wee Gaskins also killed. He was a racist and killed a woman because she got pregnant by a.
[00:24:33] Speaker B: Black man and killed her baby, who was by. Or her toddler who was biracial. He drowned both of them.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: I think that he's had issues with homophobia. I'm pretty sure, too, in parts of this.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: But I will say he was represented by some of the top criminal defense attorneys in this state.
Jack Swirling was one of his people. I mean, I think with him, that's always probably going to be our most prolific serial killer out there from the state, and I hope so.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: And you know who prosecuted him on the death penalty case?
[00:25:13] Speaker A: Who?
[00:25:15] Speaker B: Dick Carpoolian, who represented Alec Murdoch.
And he has a book about Peewee coming out in December.
So, Mr. Harpotlian, this is your Plug from the Llamas podcast that you have a book coming out in December. So if you want to come on this podcast and share more about Pee Wee Gaskins, this is also your invitation with your book.
Book plug.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: Well, and I also think with Peewee Gaskins, it was like, if there was a gene for a serial killer, he definitely had it because he states that he had to just, like, go satisfy this urge to kill. Like, there was that.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: And so many of our serial killers, like. Like Ted Bundy only killed women, right.
Now, the Golden State Killer killed both, but he really only targeted women. It was just at one point he went through, I hate to say a phase, but when he did the, you know, killed the husbands. But it. The main thing was women. Pee Wee Gaskins just wanted to kill people. He didn't care if it was male or female. He just wanted.
[00:26:20] Speaker A: He didn't have, like. It wasn't like, I'm only. He killed people, you know, as young as, like, children all the way to adults. I mean, it wasn't like there was like a. I have a.
Yeah, he didn't have a type, I guess you would say.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, Ali Warnos targeted men, you know, the opposite sex. So. But, yeah, Peewee was just horrible. I mean, it was just like you said, he just wanted. That's all he wanted to do, it seems.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: But pretty much he spent most of his years in jail. At the end after his 20 years of killing, I. He had some trials. I think he ended up playing on some of them.
And then you go kill a man while you're sitting in prison. I mean he got money for that supposedly but that was pretty much him. A terrible, horrible person that really didn't have a tie. I guess after all of this we've seen like yeah, we try to like say serial killers have this like type or motive. And you see some people are never gonna fit into that box like because he was just like I just gotta kill. And I think from all this we have seen, you know, definitely with the serial killers there is a type of the fact that they're typically mean to animals. Which I think if somebody's mean to animals that should tell you enough about them from the get go.
But overall there are not as many. Like there's not one size fits all I guess like we have seen all the different types of people who have killed and what their motives are who continue. Pee Wee Gaskins was going to kill till the day he died. Pretty much There was never going to be a remission, I guess.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: No.
I will say most serial killers are white men though. That is something that most of them have in common.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: Yes. There are not many women serial killers at all. I mean we're looking. You got back to the 1800s and some of them were killing back then. But right. No, I mean like realistically in women. Honestly women aren't the most murderers in general either.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: Like it's me are mostly the mass shooters too.
[00:28:36] Speaker A: So I think women, I think we learn how to control our emotions a whole lot better.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: It's not what we keep hearing in the world.
I mean there's control our emotions and that's why we can't be in charge of stuff.
[00:28:51] Speaker A: But well let me just tell you who started all the world wars was not women.
So we, yeah, we don't tend to murder as much and we don't. We're not serial killers. Now I'm not, I don't know about theft. I mean I, I don't know what happens there. But for the big crimes it's not usually women.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Nope, not us.
So I think that wraps up like you said at our Serial Killer September series that we have done. So now we're going to dive in, just dive into some spooky stories into that series in October. So join us next week to start.
[00:29:30] Speaker A: That and it'll be the Amityville horror case next week which I'm really excited for. And if you have time before next week, go watch the one with Ryan Reynolds, and then you can watch the really old one. So definitely go watch those, and we're going to talk about it.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: All right, I'll see you then.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: Bye.
[00:29:45] Speaker B: Bye.
