Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
And welcome to another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: So today we are going to be talking about another serial killer. We're talking about the Golden State Killer. Now, which. He had a name before that. What was it?
[00:00:21] Speaker A: He had several names, actually. So he was the.
I can't pronounce these because it was after the areas that he was in, and they were in California, and y' all know we're from Union, so the Visalia.
I don't know how to say that. Ransacker.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: Yeah, he was a burglar at first.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: And then he became that it was this area rapist and the Golden State Killer.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: So.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: And what's crazy is all of that did not connect together until they had DNA. They did not know that it was the same person until DNA became a thing. Because these crimes happened in, like, the 70s and 80s, I think.
So. Yeah. So that was just. I think we talked about that on the last episode or the episode before about how, you know, then DNA just wasn't really a thing. I don't know if they were from.
Familiar with it at all, really. But. But, yeah, so they thought. I don't know if they thought it was the same person or what, but I just don't think they communicated as well.
And I don't know how. How many similarities there were because, like, he just kind of progressed. Like it was the burglarizing, and then that led into the sexual assault, and then eventually he did start murdering. But it was kind of a progression of crimes. Yeah.
[00:01:52] Speaker B: And I don't think they really thought it was related much because I think the way they look, they were very different crimes, you know, and all of that. I just looked this up. I thought I was right, but I want to make sure.
DNA profiling, it was actually first used in Britain. I knew it wasn't here in America in 1986.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: Happened before that completely.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: No. So in the 70s and the early 80s, they. I mean, they didn't understand it, but also that was like a big deal in the O.J. trial, they didn't use the DNA, but DNA had been used before in trial. We just were behind in the US But.
So DNA is one of those. I will say if you took high school biology, you should know what DNA is. It's. But I can't say it. Like Lacy said, it's div acid. But that's what is our body is made up of, and that's our genetic.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Code to who we are. And.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: And if you ever want to know about DNA, I recommend reading the book the search for the double helix.
It is by Watson and Crick and they are the two people who found DNA kind of like, I guess discovered the DNA and how it worked and everything.
And there's also a movie with it and Jeff Goldblum is in it. And so he took that knowledge to Jurassic Park. I'm just kidding. But it's a really good catch up on like DNA. If you maybe you were in high school and maybe you're like my parents age watching this. So you didn't learn much about that area in high school.
But how we get DNA is a scientific thing too. It's called a lot of times polymerase chain reaction is what they do. So they take your DNA and they run it through all these test tubes and put it in this machine and then it goes into this gel and this gel to see if your DNA matches like crime scene DNA.
So there is a big scientific part in this and is running these tests and those type things. So it came a long way from definitely in the 80s. And I think that is probably the reason a lot more serial killers are. Maybe we don't have as many. I'm not saying there's not many, but people are more scared to commit it because one little single piece of hair could give your DNA.
You know, it's just a lot harder to commit crimes like that where DNA is easily left.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: So two things off the bat in this episode.
Wendy that edits these videos is gonna have some funny words to string together. She wants to poke fun of us and how we say stuff.
And two, can y' all tell that Lauren initially wanted to go to medical school?
[00:04:37] Speaker B: I'm a biology chemistry major, so I love science stuff. And wow. I have no DES to do criminal law ever. I love the scientific parts of it, like DNA. And I think sometimes I think about if I was to do this all over again and I was back in college, I might not go to law school. I might would go get my masters or something in genetics because there's a lot more opportunities for that now than there were 20 years ago. So I definitely think it could have made a career difference for me if I was going back to school today.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Yeah, but just a little background. I know we've kind of dug into this case. But the Golden State Killer, he wasn't captured until like around 2020ish.
So during his crime spree, he pretty. I mean, I kind of feel he got away with it, honestly, because he's so old now, he's not really gonna.
Yeah, he's almost 80 years old. But so he. Like we said, he was first known as the. I ain't even gonna try to say it. Ransacker. And he would just break into people's houses and burglarize. And another thing is, is these crimes happen in. In different areas of California also.
And by the way, the Golden State Killer is Joseph James d'. Angelo. That's who did commit these crimes. But anyway, so after that, it did let lead to sexual assaults, and he would often. And it's just. It's horrible. Like, he would break in, he would tie up husbands and put plates on their backs, and he would say, if I hear the plates move, I'm going to kill you both.
So.
So, yeah, so they had evidence clearly from all of the, you know, very many crimes. I mean, I think there was like a hundred and something crumbs that they had for him. And then eventually, like we said, he did start murdering people. And that's where the Golden State Killer came along. So there was actually a book called into the Night, I think it was. And it. By Michelle McLamara.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: Is that her last name?
[00:06:44] Speaker A: But she was just obsessed with trying to find.
I'll find the name of that book in a minute. But she was obsessed with trying to find the Golden State Killer, like she was trying to.
And so she just, you know, talked to more people and all these things. And she unfortunately passed away before they captured him and before she finished her book. So her husband actually finished her book and released it.
Can you find it while.
Yeah. So her husband is.
Yes, he's an actor.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Pat Noswal.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:21] Speaker B: And he's been like in the Avengers.
Yes. Like that guy.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But she really helped bring to light. Yes.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember this now.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: The Golden State Killer. Yeah. Yeah. So is it Michelle McLemara? That's. Get that right.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: McNamara.
It's MC N A M A R A.
So.
[00:07:47] Speaker A: You'Re just gonna have fun with us today.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: But her last name. Yes, she was very into that. I remember.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: Yes.
So. So, yeah. So anyways, they. I don't know at what point they were able to connect him, but they. He was not in codis, which is what we talked about. Which if you've been convicted of a felony, they have your DNA in codus. So eventually they did look at these crimes, and as they're putting them into codis, they realized the extent of his crime spree. Because before DNA and this database, really, it wasn't just the DNA, it was the database, too. They didn't realize how many crimes that he committed.
So as they're putting things in, that's when they realize that all this is tied together.
Another fact about this guy is he's former law enforcement. He used to work for work on burglaries and areas. And some neighbors would talk about like, how he would bring like the east area rapists up and see what they had to say.
But I don't think we'd think too much about that. I mean, maybe back then you would, but now we wouldn't because, I mean, so many people are into true crime. I mean, we have said our podcasts that get the most views are when we talk about true crime shows and stuff like that. So I just think if people are bringing stuff like that up, we probably wouldn't think nothing of it. So I don't, I don't blame, you know, the neighbors or anything like that for, you know, not realize, oh, God, maybe we should have known then. No, there's no way you could have known.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: And I think especially in today's time, you see all those memes, like, girls will like, not watch like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, but they're gonna get a cup of coffee and watch a true life serial killer documentary for comfort.
[00:09:33] Speaker A: So.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: So I definitely think we have a fascination with murder and mayhem. I love Dateline, so, yes, I don't. And even back then, you know, that was. People didn't have. As you didn't have as much news and stuff going on, right? Just normal conversation. Have you heard anything else about this guy? Kind of thing. And when I California with a lot of serial killers, I mean, and if.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: He'S a cop, you like, for me, if he's a law enforcement or former law enforcement and asking questions, I was like, oh God, maybe he's trying to get more information. Like maybe somebody saw something, realize it, you know, like, hey, have you heard anything? Because then, you know, I would just think that if somebody was asking me that, that was in law enforcement, they're just doing their job, you know, they're just taking the brains of people in their community to see if there's anything out there that hasn't been reported yet that might help them solve these crimes. So I wouldn't, you know, think anything of that, those conversations. But, you know, looking back, they just found it, you know, so odd that he would bring things up and talk about them all the time.
But yeah, so eventually he was captured because of familial DNA. So we had mentioned that last week too, and how that's pretty recent. So they were able to basically Find relatives of his, and they were able to track it down. And the way. The way that they found him is once they thought it was him, to confirm the DNA, they went through his trash, and they were able to get DNA from him from the trash. And that DNA matched the DNA from all of these crimes.
And he ended up pleading guilty to avoid the death penalty.
He, like I said, he's almost 80 years old, so he's gonna die in prison.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: His birthday is 1945.
And I will say in all this, he was married and he has kids. He was, I think, living with his daughter at the time of his arrest. Like, he wasn't some, like, loner off by himself. I don't think his family. I think he was abused as a child, from what I've understood. I don't know.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: Yes, they. There are claims that his father abused him, but also there's claims that he saw his sister, the rate as well.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: So. So there is that in that. And then it was.
But he does have a family, had three kids, living with his daughter.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: So, like, he was a great dad.
Like, didn't notice anything. And, like, I do think he was separated from his wife. I don't think the divorce officially happened until this investigation started. But they've been married for 50 years.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: I mean, like, maybe not that long, but a very long time.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And what's crazy about this case, too, is from all we know, he went dormant for decades.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: He stopped, I believe it was 1986 was his last known.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
And I think he was captured around a little before 20. Like 2018. Ish. I want to say 2018, I think.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: Is when it was 2018. And he played 30 years.
He played, I believe, like 2020 or 2021, because it was covet. I remember seeing him with his mask on. But, yeah, he went. And I honestly think if he had committed more crimes, he would have confessed then, because why not? I mean, he. He did, I will say in his plea, he got up and he apologized. He didn't say, ask for leniency, but.
[00:13:13] Speaker A: Then at this point, you're seven, you ain't getting nothing. There ain't no leniency.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: And he got up and he apologized and then stuff. Said he was sorry for the victims.
I think he got a thrill from doing it, and that's why it kept escalating. And I don't know, maybe, you know, in the 80s.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: I don't understand how he stopped. I don't understand how he stopped because, I mean, we've talked about Ted. Ted Bundy, And Eileen Warnos, and they did not stop until they were caught.
So it's just so crazy to me that you escalate and escalate and escalate and do all these horrible things over and over and over. Then all of a sudden you stop. Like, what was it like? I just.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: It bothers me that we don't know, like, what it is or did you not stop?
And I think he stopped in other stuff. I'm not convinced, Lauren. I'm not convinced because if you're saying that DNA started being used in the late 80s, he was highly intelligent. He had a criminal justice degree, I think, and maybe something like psychology or something. But, like, I don't think he would.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: Have known about the DNA when he stopped, because that was in the uk and he even saw here in the OJ trial, it did not go in. And one of the most high.
So here we were a solid 10 to 15 years behind. So I don't think the DNA. I wonder if it was just one of those things. Like, so I don't know if y' all read Matthew Perry's book where he was getting high, getting high, getting high. And then at a certain point, it did nothing for him anymore. It was just like, that happens too. Was it just like, I've done this.
I don't care anymore. Like, I've gotten away.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: I was. I just think there's more stuff and they just maybe bad investigations that don't have DNA on it, so they can't link it to him. And then.
[00:15:08] Speaker B: Like, to confess. Like, there's no reason for him to keep it secret, though, because they like the people, like, with that mentality. Ted Bundy kept confessing. Like, Todd Kohlhep had to get in there and confess.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: But don't we think Ted Bundy confessed a little bit so they would delay the death penalty?
[00:15:29] Speaker B: No, but he liked the notoriety of it. Like, he wouldn't confess a few of his victims locations because he had a special bond with them.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: But again, they stopped. They did not stop until they were caught. And I truly believe they would not have stopped without being caught. So it also shows d' Angelo is different, like, you know, that long. I think he is different from our typical serial killers.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: The serial killer gene, or was it just, I'm an adrenaline junkie and if that.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: I don't know, I. I think he.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: Didn'T start killing people. So, like, Ted Bundy from the start was he wasn't tiptoeing in the, like, grays. He was pretty Much. He started killing really young.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: This guy did it. She was an escalator. She escalated from assaults and stuff to murder like he did.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: I think that he was just like, oh, I can do this. I'll get away with this. And it was a thrill.
I think for him, some of it is he was the adrenaline junkie. And part of it he got a thrill off of it and it was the high of doing something. So maybe he got. Maybe he was out there cave diving for all we know.
[00:16:49] Speaker A: But I want to know from our viewers, are you with Lauren? Do you think he really did stop and went dormant all these years? Are you with me? Do you think he did more stuff and just didn't get caught?
That is what I want to know from our listeners because I'm opposite. I think he is still doing stuff and we just don't know. And I think he's just different as a serial killer because he's old. So you don't care about the notoriety no more.
I think he liked the attention that he was getting in the news media when all of it was so rampant. But who's to say he didn't, like, read stuff online about crimes and stuff that he committed and didn't get caught on?
I'm convinced there's more. I'm convinced there's more.
[00:17:29] Speaker B: It looks like he only really terrorized for 12 years, though.
Like, he was only.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: But there's also stuff saying that he killed animals when he was a kid. And so you have some of these characteristics of other serial killers was starting off by killing animals.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: I think one of the big kind of switching gears, though, if one of the biggest things I think with him is the ethics and all of this, which I read when we decided we were going to talk about him. There's actually some articles that are not legal articles. They're done by like the National Institute of Health because law and public health cross each other a lot, if you haven't noticed this, especially if you're in this day and age. We learned a lot with COVID and how the law impacts public health. And so with him, there is this issue, are people not going to. To get medical care and things like that due to the fact that your DNA could be used to find you guilty of a crime.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Yeah, we kind of started touching base on that last week. And, you know, I told you that musc. I get messages all the time. Can you give us your DNA for our chart?
[00:18:43] Speaker B: And I'm like, no, I can't when I like. And that's kind of what we talked about too is like, does this make you more or less want to do that? And I guess for me though, I've never committed a crime outside of probably speeding and that's probably about it. And you're not Lauren.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: You drink underage. We can admit that now.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: I have not done a whole lot of things. There's nothing my DNA. I have not murdered anybody. I have not.
[00:19:14] Speaker A: You have not harmed anyone as a crime?
[00:19:17] Speaker B: No.
My speeding is probably the only thing I do on the rig that is a crime related event.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: That's my philosophy. That is not the law. Disclaimer.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: But with that, I guess I'm not worried about it. But then I guess what if my hair. I don't know. Like, so sometimes I go down this rabbit hole. What if my hair is left at a crime scene but because a crime happened before? Like, maybe I went to the QT because I had to go to the bathroom, went in there, touched the door handle. My DNA zone it. Or I brush my hair in the bathroom or I go get that coke and then somebody comes in and robs.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: Gas station afterwards. Like, then am I going to be a suspect? So I guess like the way. And like Lacy said, this is through looking at it through genetics. So they didn't even have.
They originally did not have like his DNA from this. They used things like Ancestry23andMe.
And I don't know, but if y' all ever look at Ancestry23andMe, if you sign up for it, I've been an ancestor member, but I've never done the DNA. I've just done the family tree and it's really cool. But my husband did the ancestry, we did the swab. Or he might have 23andMe. I don't remember which one. But we were looking to find relatives of his possibly.
He probably want me to share this, but we found this picture in his mom's lockbox of this man. So I kind of wondered, was this your dad?
No, his dad is his dad. So whatever. It wasn't cool results that we were hoping. But so we did it. I mean, my husband, I don't think has committed any crimes in his adult. Adult years.
Yes. I know he underage drank and I'm guessing he's probably smoked pot and all that type stuff, but.
So nothing from like his adult years that I'd be worried about. But yeah, what if something like that. What if something happened where somebody, you know, was raped? But my husband's like, it happened in the work parking lot where his DNA is All over it. And it was his cousin or something that did it. You know, you're kind of opening a big door. But me as the science person, I love the DNA stuff because I want to know, am I more likely to get cancer?
What can I do to help prevent this? But is it going to stop me from wanting to get these possible answers? Because in the future it could possibly implicate me in a crime. And a lot of times while DNA, I think the science is the science, the DNA is not always going to be 100% accurate. And then like we've seen with our other series, people do get that tunnel vision.
I know Lacey said no, I did.
Like she's not gonna do it.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: I do think there's a difference with submitting your DNA for like ancestry.com and the police getting your DNA from there and the police getting it from your medical provider. And I think that our DNA to medical providers should be protected. I think that that should be protected under hipaa, that police cannot access that data.
I mean, I guess you can make arguments for a search warrant and stuff, but I don't know, I just. If you volunteer, if you give, voluntarily give your DNA for something like that's not medical, that's not something that's necessary, that is just for fun that you choose to do, I don't see a problem in the police using that for this kind of stuff because you chose to put your DNA on there in.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: That contract, probably that this is not protected, all that.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But I don't like cops getting it from a medical provider. I don't think that should be allowed. I don't think that should be done. And I think that's the only way we can ensure that people are getting the things that they need and can find out. You know, my mother in law has had breast cancer. My mother has had breast cancer.
There's been some other cancers in my family. Just yesterday I found out about a family member that may have, you know, a certain cancer that another family member had. So, you know, it's definitely something that's on my radar right now. Especially like you're talking about Lauren. So I mean, if there's ways to find out if I'm at a higher risk, I would want to know those things. I want to know is there anything I can do now to help myself? But I ain't doing it if the cops can get it.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: How does this work? I guess, like if you like go to the hospital after you've committed a crime and like say, I don't know, I'm thinking, like, you committed, like, a stabbing or something, but in the process, you got stabbed. Like, y' all were fighting and you got stabbed or something, and you go to the hospital to get that wound treated. Can the cops get that information?
What. How does that process work?
[00:24:15] Speaker A: I don't think they can get anything you told your doctor, but could they get your medical records? Yes, absolutely. I've gotten several medical records. I've gotten medical records from alleged victims.
I've gotten medical records from my own clients.
There's medical records for some clients, and I don't ask for them because I don't want to get them or trigger trying to get them. So, yeah, so I can. There are certain circumstances that you can.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: And it's stuff redacted in that. Or can you get. So I know in civil cases, we can get medical records under subpoenas, especially if, like, the issue is, like, did this person have capacity? Stuff like that that we're trying to argue.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: But, like, for instance, if you're pulling my medical records because I committed a crime, do you get to know I'm like a type 1 diabetic? Like, does all that come out foreign?
I'm not a diabetic. That's just my example.
[00:25:13] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm trying to think.
I mean, I've seen a drug screen panel.
I've seen one where there was a lot of drugs in someone.
I can't think that much was redacted, Honestly, in the last few medical records that I've looked at, I don't think there was much redacted, if anything at all.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: It's kind of crazy. I mean, I know. Like, I. Honestly, I don't.
[00:25:44] Speaker A: You couldn't redact the. I mean, it's a profile, right? DNA is a profile. Like, how would you.
[00:25:50] Speaker B: Well, I'm just saying, like, for instance, if I did this test that was like, the test that said, like, for instance, I know people have the broca gene that causes cancer. So if I'd done a test that said I have the broccoline, so therefore, I'm more likely to get this cancer. And when they ran a DNA sample on this person, they knew they had that broccoline.
Could they find, like, use those pieces to piecemeal stuff together, I guess, like, to know more or is that, like. I don't know if this is beyond the scope or if that stuff we're gonna get to is like, oh, well, this person has genes, abcd. And we see that in their medical records. This serial killer we know has this.
Therefore we're going to mandate some type of testing.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. And that's kind of the interesting thing about law. Right. And with science is it's just there's so much new technology and so I just don't know if we have the protections in place legally that we need to make people feel more comfortable with getting that kind of stuff. Maybe we need some law laws to give people more privacy and protection with stuff like that. But I definitely think as science and technology develops, our legal system has to develop with it, you know, to, to keep up to.
Because yes, we do want police to be able to catch people that are harmful to the community. Me and Lauren aren't saying that. But at the same time, we also have privacy.
We've seen botched investigations.
So there has to be a balance. It can't just be. Well, it's for the better of the public, for just everybody to give the DNA so we can all find out who did the bad stuff and capture them up. It's so much more into it. It's more gray areas. It's not black and white, it's not clear cut. So I think, I think our science and our technology is growing at such a rapid pace and I think our legal system is just really lagging.
And so I think there's just a lot of questions out there that we don't have answers to legally.
[00:27:53] Speaker B: Well, I think that's where like, I think there's like, probably help that needs to be done between lawyers and scientists and legislatures to all come up with plans, because we are lawyers, we are not scientists, so we do not know all of that. And your legislators tend to be a lot of attorneys, but there are different fields. But you don't see a lot of medical professionals and scientists in the world of politics, like at your local levels that are usually deciding your laws. So I think that's one thing that maybe committees need to be established at like the state levels because a lot of this criminal stuff is by state level law. So we want our statutes and our codes to reflect this. And that's something that I think is going to have to change.
[00:28:41] Speaker A: Agreed, agreed.
So I'm, I'm curious what our listeners think about that too. Like, how do y' all feel, Would y' all give your DM DNA for medical purposes even if you knew that law enforcement could access it at any time? And if y' all have any questions, definitely send us a message.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: And next week we're going to continue with another serial killer stuff. But we are going to move into Spooky October, which I'm excited about because I want to talk about Amyville. But anyways, if you have cases paranormal weird things you think are more Halloweeny, definitely shoot us a dm. Let us know. And we look forward to hearing from you.
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Lauren, before we close, there is a toy going off on the other side of my office, and nobody else is in here but me.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: So I believe in ghosts and spirits. So somebody's trying to talk to you.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: I'm a little creeped out. See you next week.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: Bye.
