Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
It's Lacey and I'm Lauren. And welcome to another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: And today, we are starting our first serial killer deep dive with probably one of the most infamous serial killers out there, Ted Bundy.
[00:00:22] Speaker A: My husband watches so many Ted Bundy shows. I should probably be concerned, but I can't take how many times he has watched, like there's like a new series on him or documentary, but he has watched that several times.
But I would say this, this is the one that probably captures his attention the most going on.
[00:00:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that he's one of the biggest ones and like America because. Well, I will say I have watched a ton of documentaries, date lines, all that type stuff on him. I've never watched the movie on Netflix with Zac Efron playing him because he can't. Because I don't want to see Zac Efron play a serial killer because I love him too much.
He's always gonna be High School Musical and like, happy movies, so can't.
But I will say I think America's fascinated with him because he was supposedly.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: Good looking, right?
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Now looking at pictures of him, do I think he is good looking? No, but it was, you know, a.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: Different.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: When he was out doing his thing, so maybe he was.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
But if y' all don't know, I feel like most of our listeners probably know about Ted Bundy, but he killed and murdered women across several states.
So in the northwest, California, Oregon, Washington area, I think that is part of the crime sprees. And then he came to the middle of the country, like around Colorado. And I don't remember if he was ever arrested for anything in the West.
What I remember the first arrest being in Colorado, but he was arrested there and he was put in prison and kept there. And he actually escaped.
And when he escaped, that's when he went to Florida. And that is where his crime spree ended, where he.
Honestly, it feels kind of similar to the Idaho murders.
That killing with Ted Bundy at Florida, breaking into storms, a sorority. Yeah. Sorority house. And killing multiple, multiple women at that house. And that's when his crimes caught up to him. And even after his death, I think they're still trying to tie other crimes to him because they have found bodies and stuff. They don't really know how many people that he killed. They're pretty sure he killed around 20. He confessed to more than that, and they believe he killed more than what he even confessed to.
And I think some of it was.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: Probably he was what I think when he was trying. They were trying to give him the death penalty. There kept being appeals and appeals, and that's when he would, like, lay out some more people he killed. So he probably was just trying to.
The night before his execution is when he confessed to 30 homicides.
But I think he was probably holding on to stuff. And then there were some. I think he was never gonna confess to it all because in his grossness and everything, some of them were special to him. And he needed that not to be known to anybody else but him.
I think one of the grossest things I think about Ted Bundy and all of this is the fact he went back to the bodies and had relations with them. And I know we see that. And, like, what's the guy up in New York?
Jeffrey Dahmer would do stuff like that. But Jeffrey Dahmer tend to keep them. And he more mummified them, I guess, where Ted Bunny's just, like, burying them and going back. And, like, there were times that I think he said they were so decomposed, he couldn't do anything. And that really grossed me. Like, it's just horrible. Yes, he is, like, the worst. But I think interesting things about him is, like, Lacey mentioned him escaping from prison and living a whole new life, which I guess how we talked about in the prior episodes. Do you think realistically that could happen in today's time, that he could truly escape and have this whole other life in Florida?
[00:04:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I do.
I do. I mean, I definitely think prisons and jails are more secure, but I do think certain people are more trusted than others.
One thing that.
And I think they did trust him because of his appearance. And I think one thing with Ted Bundy that bothers me in. In watching some of the live footage from the trial is honestly the racism. So what I mean by that is, so the judge was overseeing him. And when he was convicted at these horrible crimes, and like me and Lauren said this person was a horrible human being, he killed multiple women, mutilated their bodies, assaulted them sexually, beat them, stabbed them. I mean, these were horrific crimes across multiple states. He would lure women to his car.
So just terrible things. And after being like, his leg was.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Messed up and ask for help, or he'd pretend to be a cop and be a good person, and that's how he would get them so really messed up.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And so Ted Bundy wasn't what went to law school.
So he went to law school. I don't know if he ever passed the bar examination, but he did go to law school. And I think he also thought he was the smartest person in the courtroom and thought he could get away with it.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: Law school he went for a year and I think he realized he couldn't just get by on his like, looks and charm and sweet talking professors. And he ended up quitting. But he did. Yeah, he went to law school for a year.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And I do think he had the intellect to study the law and understand things and comprehend things. And a lot of people going to trial probably don't have that kind of training.
So he did have that. But when he was convicted of these horrible things, he, the judge said, I would have loved to have had you practice in my courtroom. And I've been in many courtrooms. Right. And I just think if this was a black man standing in front of that judge because he sold some drugs, that statement ever would have happened.
So that's where I get really disturbed is I think. And there were women that came to his trial for his support. Like, there's no way he could have done that. He's like this too beautiful of a man. And it, that's what bothers me is the white beautiful male card just played such a role in this that when you look at the crimes, it's just disgusting. It's just not okay, you know. And there were women that they would write. And I know he's not the only one, but you know, think about.
Yeah. Where for women and then women just riding him and so in love with him and going to the trial and like being there to support him after everything that he had done was just crazy. But yeah, the judge saying that just really has always bothered me. And there's actual footage of it and he says a couple other things about it. But I just, I just don't think that would have been said to a black man selling drugs. I just really don't. And it is really hurtful. I believe they even went there and said that in front of the victim's families at the end of the trial. So that's something that's always bothered me. And I do think his looks and how he carried himself is one of the reasons he got away with it so long.
Like, oh God, look, you know, he's a handsome white man. I can't see him doing anything like that. But like, can we imagine if the man, the guy in Idaho at the, at the hearing, if the judge would have like said, oh God, you're so smart. I would have loved to have you here in my courtroom. You just could have made some better Decisions in life. Like, we wouldn't have liked a judge saying that We. We want a judge to go after him and, you know, tell them what we all want to tell them for committing these horrible crimes towards these. These women and that man. And so it's just very. It was just very weird the.
What the judge said after this, after Ted Bundy was convicted of such horrific things.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: And I just be like, Judge Newman with Myrdal, who, like, just laid into.
[00:09:08] Speaker A: Him like, yeah, yeah, we needed a Judge Newman in that situation. That's not something I say often, but, yeah, you definitely did need a. A Judge Newman in that situation. So I think his looks helped play a part in that and with the support. And I also think that plays a part into his notoriety as well. You know, the fact that he did go to law school, he had knowledge of the law, very smart man.
And to do such horrific things.
And he is one of the ones, like we talked about in our first episode, where I think.
I think some women, of course, said they were creepy vibes. But for the most part, he was very social.
He wasn't like a. He didn't stay home all the time. He was outgoing, and people were surprised that it was him that had committed these murders. But he did have a troublesome childhood.
And so I think when you look back at that, you kind of see. I mean, I wouldn't say signs of serial killer, but you see some very traumatic signs. Things that he went through, like he was raised by his grandparents, but he didn't realize they were his grandparents until he got older.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Like 16, I think, or 14. Somewhere in there, he realized his mom, his sister was his mom, and his dad took off.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: Yeah, and I definitely think there was more of a stigma then with that. Like, I. I do think in today's days, day and age, if two people are unmarried and have a baby, there's not, as. I don't want to say there's no stigma, but there's definitely not as much as it was when Ted Bundy was born in that time frame. So I do think in the 60s.
[00:10:49] Speaker B: You didn't have, like, unwed, you know. Well, he was actually born in the 40s. Sorry.
[00:10:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Definitely in that time, you did not have unwed mothers and all that.
[00:11:01] Speaker A: That was a time when there were a lot more places where if your teenage daughter got pregnant, you could send her away on vacation. She's staying with a relative, and she comes back and she's back, and little does everybody know, she actually got sent away to have a baby. And to keep it all hush hush.
But that was, those were things that were happening in the 1940s and you know, so that these grandparents stepped in not to raise him because just maybe they did also just love him and want him to have the best life possible. But it actually seems more like they just did it as a cover up to how to hide the shame of their daughter. Having a child out of wedlock at such a young age. And I think that carries on a child, carries with the child, you know, so he had some trauma from, from that. And I'm not saying that that excuses anything. Right. Nothing like that can excuse what, you know, somebody doing such horrible things. But I do think it's important to go through people's history because it may explain piece by piece how somebody got to point A to point B.
Clearly that's not the only thing that got him from his childhood to being a serial killer. Definitely not.
But there are.
[00:12:20] Speaker B: The sociopath and all that types of. One question I have for you Lacey, and all this is one of his attorneys said that he was the definition of heartless and evil. And I think another one said he was a cold hearted son of a bitch.
Are you allowed to say that about your clients after the fact? I guess like that's a question from like your perspective. Would you ever say that about your client?
[00:12:48] Speaker A: So I think you can say it because it's not attorney client privileges opinion of somebody. I don't think it's good to say, would I say that about a client? I would not say that about a client.
I don't think ever.
If I were, I do believe it would be after the case was closed, there's no appeals, there's no post conviction relief.
Because what I think about that is everybody deserves the right to a fair trial. Even Ted Bundy deserved the right to a fair trial. And from what I've seen, he was convicted during a fair trial. Another reason you want a fair trial is you don't want to overturn on appeal and have to have, you know, bring this person back to try them again and put these victims families through it. So I know people hate on defense attorneys, but if you want a conviction to stick, you want good defense attorneys that aren't going to leave issues preserved for appeal or post conviction relief because otherwise there could, there's going to be another trial and more times money spent and these victims put it through it. So but I do believe he was convicted through a, a fair trial. I just would not want to come out with that because it's Going to come into play when if there is a retrial, a jury. Right.
Hey, his first attorney called him this.
I wouldn't want that to taint a jury pool and for some reason that come up on appeal and have to try a case again and again. So for me, I. I wouldn't say anything like that because I wouldn't want to be called into court for PCR calling me ineffective assistance of counsel, because I came out and said these things about my client that were damaging and could have tainted the jury pool or anything like that. So I wouldn't do that.
Like I said, maybe if they died and, you know, everything was said and done. Yeah, that would be the only way I would. I still don't think I would even in that situation, in a public forum, maybe to my staff, but I wouldn't.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: Come out of stuff behind closed doors to our staff.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: We would never. I just thought it was interesting. And I guess you're right. It is just opinion. And after he was, wow, I don't know. A lot of people probably don't realize this attorney client privilege survives death. So if my client passes away, that doesn't give me the right just to go share their stuff. It survives this. So I still could not break that privilege. But I guess you're right. If he's executed and you say he was a nasty, terrible person, what harm. You didn't break privilege because that's your opinion of him. And I mean, especially once he's been executed, like.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: He was a terrible and he was worse than what y' all even knew. He even killed this person. This person. This person. And he told you that in privilege, then you've gone too far.
But realistically, I don't even know what the bar would do with that information.
I mean, would they really. Would they take your life? I don't know. I ain't gonna risk it and find out. But I hesitate to worry if they would do too. Too much. Honestly. No.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: Especially when you were, I mean, like, obvious. Okay, so that brings us to another point. Obviously, you are allowed the right to have an attorney. That's your constitutional right. But in his situation, he actually represented himself, although he technically had a legal team, as the court mandated. I think in some of the trials, he had to have a legal team, but he did represent himself, which you have the right to represent yourself. But I've noticed here, when there have been big cases, the judges tend to not let someone represent themselves anymore in certain cases.
Have you noticed that as well? Have you seen, like, I haven't seen a death penalty case where someone actually represented themselves anymore. And I have been when I clerked for a judge, I've been in hearings and like they were serious charges and even though they might not qualify for a public defender, the judge appointed a public defender anyways because they were such serious charges and those type things.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I, I have seen it.
We personally have experienced it in our office being forced to stay on a case by a judge for those reasons. And I think that's a good decision. I think like I was saying, if you want a case of sick and not come back on appeal, you have to have an attorney on it trying to make sure that every, everything is closed. Like any loophole is closed because you don't want cases to keep coming back, you want it to come back on. Right. Reasons. Right. So somebody that represents themselves is not going to know when to object to things and stuff like that. And some things you just wave, you know, some things, if you're representing yourself, you're expected to know the law and it is what it is. But I do think it's good to have an attorney appointed to oversee the case.
I know for us, you know, it be like if the person had any questions or anything like that, the judge wanted us there to answer those questions and stuff like that. So that is something that we do see. But they are allowed to lead it. And when you think about Ted Bundy's case, I, he murdered all these women and you know them, but like imagine may represented them, represented themselves on a case where the victim survived, right. And then they're representing themselves and they get to cross examine them.
It's just they're, they're, they're making the victim a victim again of something else, you know, and, but yeah, I think that's where I went back to where he thought he was the smartest person in the room. And I honestly thought he could charm, like, I think he thought he could charm his way out of this and was gonna get out.
[00:18:46] Speaker B: I mean, and we did see women lined up like you said. So I think kind of wrapping this one up. Do you think in today's time if this had happened, he would have been convicted sooner than what he was been caught sooner because there were a spree of murders in different states.
He escaped jail, started this whole other life in Florida. And I, I guess in my opinion, I will say I think he would have got caught sooner because like you said, yeah, prior stuff, we connect more stuff from states now. We're not so isolated, but Also, I do think making this whole.
I think in today's time we see the media so much we would have recognized Ted Bundy walking down the street. And I think.
But I also think finding this whole new fake ID in today's time is a lot harder than what it was back then because people didn't have. Like, you couldn't go get a job today without doing an i9, I guess so, like verifying your Social Security number, all that stuff. So I think he still probably would have killed a lot of people, but not as many as my opinion. What's your thoughts?
[00:19:50] Speaker A: No, I completely agree.
I don't think his crime spree would have lasted as long.
And mainly like you said, because states do talk. And also DNA, I think. But I mean, you gotta think back then they. People didn't know as much about DNA, so they were more careless when committing crimes with leaving stuff like that. I think fingerprints probably were a bigger thing during that time frame. And try not to leave your prints anywhere, but certainly not thinking about DNA. So with what he did to these women, DNA was collected and I believe they would have been able to have a very strong case for the state to convict him way before he got to Florida.
And before we wrap up, I've got one other thing.
Could you see yourself ever going to cheer on somebody's death sentence being carried out? Because that also happened with Ted Bundy, you know, and it's happened with other people too, where people literally will go and it's almost like tailgating at a football game. They bring signs, they bring beverages, they cheers and they await for the call to say he's dead. Can you ever see yourself going to that?
[00:21:07] Speaker B: Not as just a regular person. Now, I can't tell you if somebody murdered somebody in my family.
Yeah, I don't know. Like, that's something that I can't honestly answer, I guess, because. No, like, in my normal sense, like.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: If it was somebody. You had no personal connection?
[00:21:22] Speaker B: If I had no personal connection with. No. But like, you know, like, I know in Idaho they were mad, some of the families, and they probably would have went and cheered if he had got the death penalty and when he died.
And I cannot say I blame them one bit on that. Like, that is a different situation. But no. A random person that I had no connection with.
No. I mean, I have mixed feelings on the death penalty in general. And I really don't know. Like, I don't know if I. It came down to it and somebody in my family had been murdered, what I would want And I hope I. And pray I never have to deal with that. So I don't know. But no, I would not go tailgate a random person's.
[00:22:02] Speaker A: Yeah, murder. I don't, I don't think I'd go either way. I just don't think it would be healthy for me, you know, if anybody that I knew and loved dearly was murdered by somebody that got the death penalty, I don't think I would go. Cuz I'm like, I, I'll just, I'm going to find out and I'd rather be at home in my safe space.
I don't really need to go cheer on somebody's death. And I still don't even think them dying is going to bring me cheerful excitement. So that's why I just find it so odd in these series when you see these people with signs. And I mean, they're very clever, creative signs. Some of them go read some. But yeah, so they go and they take drinks and beverages and it's just a big celebration. I just don't see me ever using any time out of my life to go do something like that. But that was something else that happened in Ted Bundy's case.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: Well, if y' all have questions or want to give us comments, definitely send us messages and let us know some other serial killers you want us to talk about because we're going to have, once again, serial killer September.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: All right, I'll see you next week.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Bye Bye.
