Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: And I'm Lauren, and welcome to another.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: Episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: So today we are going to talk about our next new series. So this may be a little bit shorter of an episode, but we're kind of going to break into our next series, which we are probably going to do for the whole month of September, is a, I guess serial killer. September is what we're going to call it here.
But we want to talk about just overall serial killer trends, how things have changed, and then we're going to dive into some big serial killers for a few episodes. And if you have recommendations, are there certain ones you want to talk about, please let us know.
But I guess we're just going to kind of start and talk about some differences. So I guess one thing with Lacey being in the criminal court proceedings, just in general, what are some things in the way the laws or like our court systems have changed from like years ago, you know, when we had a. I feel like there were more serial killers in the 60s, 70s, 80s. So, like, how have things changed?
[00:01:12] Speaker A: And I really don't know. Like, I mean, as, as far as prosecuting the criminal process, there's probably not much difference in that aspect. I think the aspect is going to be a lot different in investigations.
And what I mean by that is so like code, like the way they find serial killers in investigating is so significantly different. So when you think about codis, where we put DNA and CODIS and see if it gets a match.
So if someone is arrested for a felony, their DNA gets taken. There's different ways DNA can be put into CODIS when someone is arrested. So if evidence is left at a crime DNA, they put it through CODIS and see if they get hit. Hits that used to not exist. So when you talk about 60s and 70s and as far as like investigating crimes across state lines, cops weren't talking to each other. And I'm not saying that they weren't doing it because they weren't doing their jobs right. It's just we don't, we didn't have the resources that we have today, like codis. CODIS didn't exist. Like, we didn't have like a central database for Pete for, for, for police to say, hey, hey, we have this crime scene. And actually it's a lot like this crime scene in Nevada and Utah. And like, you know, they didn't have these central computerized programs where they could put it in to help them find someone. So I think that's one thing that we just have is that CODA system Because we just used to not even have that database. We didn't have DNA.
There's a centralized system, you know, for fingerprints and stuff as well.
You put fingerprints in and it's not just going to check our state, it's going to check all kinds of states. So, you know, we have these programs in place where states are talking. So you get hits on things like that. Where in the 60s and 70s you didn't have that information. So I think the court process is still the same and the prosecution is still the same, but it's just the investigation by cops, I think that is so significantly different today compared to the 60s and 70s because of these programs.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: So as far as DNA goes, I mean, I know we've talked about before one of the biggest cases where, you know, DNA and stuff was coming up was like O.J. simpson and that type stuff. But when did we. I guess now DNA is just readily accepted, right? Like if it is like here we saw DNA from Bob on this, we don't really question that anymore. Right. Like the science is the science almost.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: So I know that there's been a few successful defense motions with DNA.
I don't know why, so I haven't dug into that. I've seen a couple things where the defense did get either the DNA suppression press that could be with how it was collected. It may not be the science and contain, it could be contaminated, you know, contaminated and stuff like that. So those are things. But I think for the most part it is pretty widely accepted. I think. I don't know if I've talked about this or not, but there was a case where this was not my case. I was in court watching this. AEL was accused of a rape and DNA excluded him. You know, so his defense attorney was really leaning heavily on the DNA because it came back and it was not his client.
The prosecutor refused to dismiss the case at that point for whatever reason. And so he was trying to get a. Get a PR bond because his bond had been denied. So, you know, I think in certain cases it's even useful for the defense to exclude a client.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: And I think that's one, I guess like from looking at everything with serial killers when we are going to talk about people like Ted Bundy and probably Pee Wee Gaskins because he's here in South Carolina, what was in the Golden.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: State Killer, because they didn't even get. They used familial DNA, which is very new. So I definitely think we need to dig into that one because that was a really big one where they used Familial DNA, which.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: Because didn't I get it from like. I know we'll talk about it more, but. Well, wasn't it like from ancestry or like one of those like DNA sites?
[00:05:36] Speaker A: Yeah. So like, and some hospitals and stuff are trying to get people to give DNA and maybe there's a medical purpose and stuff like that. But that DNA is being stored for police too, you know, and so it could come from stuff like that. But yeah, people, if they submit their DNA toancestry.com the police are using the ancestry and we'll dig into that. It's very interesting science and the way they, they do it, it's. It doesn't just lead you directly to the person, you know, it's a lot of still investigating and digging. So I know I. So Luke has my oldest son, like I said, he's got a lot of medical stuff. So he has the musc, my chart account.
So I have to have one so I can access his records.
And they're always emailing me for my DNA, but they have a database and they're like, oh, submit your DNA for this reason and that reason. And I'm like, no, it's so scary. So I've not given my DNA. I will not give my DNA because I just wouldn't trust the government with it to do the right thing. And that's just how I feel. But you know, even we even have hospitals trying to collect DNA that's gonna really expand these databases.
[00:06:53] Speaker B: And I guess the question we're gonna have, because DNA can be really helpful, so I will tell you on a side note, my husband did his DNA with ancestry because he wanted to just.
There were rumors he had a sister out there. So we were just trying to like, look at stuff like that. Yeah, but so not from his mom, from his dad.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: I figured.
[00:07:12] Speaker B: But I guess like in DNA you can learn so much about, like, are you pre disposition to have cancer? What can we do to fix this? There's so much in your DNA that is so helpful that I do think in science in general, I want to give my DNA to know. Like, can you find out, like, can we prevent me from getting cancer because we know this interacts with this, or can we prevent, you know, Alzheimer's by finding, like, what gene? And it's going to take people giving their DNA to be studied and especially people that have conditions. But how can we separate that from not being in a criminal database? Like, I guess I don't want to get. Obviously I don't plan on committing a crime, but I don't want to give my dm like you said. I do worry, like the science part of me and the germaphobe and hypochondriac in me want to. But how this seems kind of crazy that if I give it to a hospital, the hospital, it can be used against me, I guess.
[00:08:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Or anybody that you know or anything like that.
And I mean, I guess because of where I work and stuff, you know, I think worst case scenario, like, I mean, the big thing is the yogurt shop murders right now because they just released a new documentary from the yogurt shop murders in the 1990s and we haven't talked about that and maybe we'll do an episode, but basically these people were killed at a yogurt shop. So let's say, for example, that they have DNA collected from some of the silverware and they believe that's the killer and they do familial DNA and they arrest somebody. But that somebody was just there having frozen yogurt, very innocent, and now they're trying to tie it. So those. That's where my brain goes is what if somebody I love or me, I'm somewhere, I leave my DNA on a spoon or something like that and something crazy happens and then I get wrapped up into something that I don't have anything to do with.
And unfortunately, we, we see those scenarios, we did a whole segment on frame where we see tunnel vision with cops and people getting convicted. So I don't trust my DNA in everybody's hands. But I understand where you're coming from. Like, yes, if there are serial killers out there, there's unsolved murders, there's unsolved rapes. I want DNA to help us get make those arrests. Right.
But I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I would hope that the hospital would have us would create a separate database that this is solely used for health and we're not going to release it. But I do think right now it's just all going in to these online systems.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: I think it's going to be interesting to see how we separate the two in those situations. Like, because people deserve to be able to get the best medical care and those type things, but also our DNA is on everything. So I mean, I guess in some ways, if they really want it, I mean, you know, go get the trash after, like, you know, you know, you spit into a cup. I mean, like, here's my drink right now. My DNA is all over this show. But I will say one case I Want to talk about later on is like, the Amanda Knox issues, because we were in college when all this happened, and DNA was a big part of it because she had a tiny piece of DNA on a knife, but it was a knife that was in her house. So it's probably contaminate. Whether she did it or not is not what I'm talking about. But, like, DNA is an issue. But I also think kind of switching gears with serial killers, I think one of the biggest things we talk about with them a lot is their motives and the different way they act. And it's just so interesting to me to see all the way the different ways serial killers interact that they tend to be.
People are shocked a lot of times to find this person was a serial killer.
[00:11:08] Speaker A: Yes and no. So, like.
Like, let's take Ted Bundy.
Very likable. You know, they said he was very likable.
Even. Even the judge said at one point, like, I would have loved to have you practice in my courtroom, except, you know, he made these horrible decisions or whatever.
But on the flip side of that, there were a lot of disturbing things in his childhood. And I think that's a common thing we see in serial killers is this likable Persona as adults, you know, because it's all of a sod. It's all. It's all fake that they're truly not good people, but they're using that to lure victims a lot of times or to mask what they're doing. But when you dig into their childhood, it's extremely different. So I think, like, when people say they're shocked, it's because they knew them as adults. But a lot of people that knew the best kids are not shocked. Like Pee Wee Gaskins. There are people that met him and knew him as a kid, they weren't surprised. And people that knew Ted Bundy knew that there were disturbing things there as well. And then you have the guy that was the clown.
Oh, yeah.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: And his daughter didn't even realize it. Gas. Get what's his name?
I gotta look this up.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: I know. It's driving me crazy. I. John Wayne Gacy just came. Yes.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: I was wanting to say gassy. And I was like, that's not it.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: John Wayne Gacy.
But he was a clown at kids parties, so, you know, just a very likable character and stuff. And.
Yeah, so I just think that is common themes that we see in serial killers is that likable Persona as an adult. But we do see very disturbing things typically in their childhood.
[00:13:00] Speaker B: Well, that's kind of the thing with, like, I guess, Todd Cole, help. So Todd Cole, help. You know, is up here in Spartanburg. My boss, when I worked at Converse College, when all this went down, my boss told me I need to get off the TV and get off the Internet because I became obsessed and, like, terrified at the same time. But, like, his mode, like, he did have issues with a. With like, the child issues. Like, his mom always said that. What was interesting for me is that maybe we'll talk about him too at some point is he was a serial killer, but he was also a mass murderer too, which was kind of crazy.
They're two different, like, types of people a lot of times with the mass murderers, and he ended up being a serial killer, but he also did a mass murder because people pissed him off at a bicycle shop, according to him.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: And going back with that common theme, I just said, I mean, he was a realtor, very comfortable talking to people.
Very.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: He was creepy, though.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: Okay. And I feel like you kind of get that too. You kind of get that mix. Like, he's very nice. He can get along with people. He's not, like, antisocial.
But when you look at his full story there, what he was in prison and a sex offender for a horrific crime that he committed as a very, very young adult, almost brisk teen, I want to say 17, 18 years old. I don't even know if he was 18 yet when he committed that rape.
And it was. I mean, it was kidnapping too. Like, kept this, this girl I don't know how long. But, you know, and I, I differentiate like that because I do think there's a difference between two people who are highly intoxicated together and something happens. So when I say, like, a bad rape, I'm not saying that there's a good rape. For me, when I say something like that, I mean, I guess other crimes going on at the same time, if that makes sense. Like, like she was. She was kidnapped, she was held and raped.
So I guess I just mean there, there's a. There's a lot of circumstances going on. When I say a bad rape, I'm not trying to say that there's, there's, there's a good one. I just think there's mitigating circumstances in some situations as a defense lawyer.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: But what I mean by that type situation is.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't want to come across when I say, oh, it was a bad rape. Like, oh, there's good rights.
So anyway, so, yeah, so that's, that's what I mean by that is, you know, there was a lot of more, there's more brutal facts as well, in addition to her, you know, being, being raped. And so yeah, you see that in his childhood. But yeah, he became a realtor and was not disassociated or anything like that in that situation. I think that's kind of what Lauren, maybe you were getting at too with the mass murder situation.
I think a lot of times when there's a mass murder, we see, oh, Lauren, can you hear me?
[00:16:07] Speaker B: I can. Now it's back. So Wendy may have to edit out a second. It just went out and then it's back. Okay, so you can keep going and maybe she could edit this part out.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: Yeah, okay.
Okay. So going back. So Lauren, I think that's what you were getting to kind of with the mass murder situation compared to serial killers. I think a lot of times with the serial killers we see personable people in typical jobs, whereas mass murder situations, I think a lot of those instances we see people like, very disconnected with society, more withdrawn than you do serial killers.
[00:16:45] Speaker B: And I guess they don't. I think a lot of you, mass murder, you know, you're going to die as part of it. So maybe like you're not as worried about where serial killers got to live and to keep doing what they're doing, which I guess kind of wrapping up this thing kind of going back to a DNA part of it.
So we know that there are certain genes that do impact you being a serial killer because there's like those genes that like are more likely to give you these certain behaviors and those type things Ultimately. Do you think that's ever going to impact anything with the coerce? When I know right now like they're saying, well, there's no serial killer gene, but all most serial killers tend to have like abcd.
If you, it turns out that they eventually do say this gene, 99% of people that have it are way more likely to do this.
How's that going to play into everything? Because you still can't have these people roaming free because you're not going to really rehabilitate them.
[00:17:45] Speaker A: I think it's more going to play into death penalty situations more than anything.
If someone is born with the, with the gene and they prove that, I think the defense would stronger advocate and argue for a life sentence over the death penalty because you would argue that certain decision making abilities were taken because it was a gene, you know what I'm saying? So that's what I think it would impact.
I mean it's not going to impact innocence or guilt, and it's not going to impact somebody's competency to stand trial either. And I guess the only other argument you could make is criminal responsibility. Can they be held criminally responsible? If they have a gene, you might have it there.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: But you're a danger to society.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: Exactly. So I don't know what you would do, but I think the most important, the. The biggest thing you're going to see it in is states where you do have the death penalty arguing for a license.
Correct? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: This takes us in our first episode. We're going to start with Ted Bundy next. But on a happy note, if anybody needs to watch a good trial, y' all take some time and watch Cardi B.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yes. Agree.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Awesome. She's light and it's all over. So if you haven't watched it realistically, she was pregnant, and she was in the elevator, and a security guard tried to take her picture when she was pregnant. And she hadn't told anybody she was pregnant yet.
And so she swipes the phone, I think, out of the security guard's hands. And y' all know she has long nails. Her nail supposedly, like, hit the security guard's nose.
And that is the security guard is suing for damages because her nails ruined this woman's nose.
And if you're a security guard, millions of dollars. Like, seriously, I feel like you should know there's an expectation of privacy. You are not. She had. She went on a Saturday to her obgyn. They had shut the whole office down. You're there in security. You should have known there's an expectation of privacy.
So with that sit.
I. I see why she went to trial because she'd rather pay the attorneys than pay this woman because all she did was slap her nose. She did not cause that much damage. But if you're needing something fun to watch, watch her.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And it did make me think of our episode where we talked about Johnny Depp, where there are some people that can get away with things on the stand that our typical clients cannot. Like, she. Some of the things she says and cusses and stuff like that. Like, yes, Cardi B. Can do that. And I have laughed. I think the jury has laughed. I think it's going to come back in her favor. But, I mean, most of our clients, like me and Lauren, would die if they acted like that on the stand. Like, it would be mortifying.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Like, when they asked her if the lady was like, was she calling, like, when they were talking about delay, the security guard size and weight and she.
[00:20:48] Speaker A: Was like, oh, I know, yeah, yeah.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: And she's like how do you know.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: She'S bigger than you and she's like your eyes you see like oh, it was so funny. But yeah, definitely. I went back to our episode with Johnny Depp and and watching her and I haven't watched the TR really just seen like the Tik tock clips.
But yeah, she can definitely like Johnny Depp get away with a lot more on the stand with the jury than a typical client will.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Yes. But it has been hilarious. So something more fun in the legal world. But definitely let us know if what serial killers you want to talk about. And we are going to do paranormal and spooky cases near Halloween. So if you have stuff like that, let us know and we look forward to talking to you next time.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: All right, see you next week.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: Bye.
