Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Hey, Lola. Hey, Lacey.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know if I've said that yet in an episode, but I call Lauren Lola. That was her name in our Spanish class in high school.
Just kind of stuck, so whatever.
So today we are talking about the Susan Smith case. I was talking to Lauren this week about it because it was announced that her parole hearing was set. So I thought it would be interesting to talk about since me and you're both from Union.
We were pretty young at the time when it happened. Was it 94 or. The trial was 94. Do you remember?
[00:00:44] Speaker A: I think I was five or six. It was 93 or 94. I mean, it was okay. We were young.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So for anybody just listening, I'm pretty sure most people are probably aware of Susan Smith, but if you're not. Susan Smith was born and raised in Union, South Carolina, which, like I said, that's from. That's where me and Lauren are from. She was convicted of murdering her two children.
She was married. I think she was separated at the time, or divorced when she was still married. They were not officially divorced yet.
And we can go in more into some. Some details of the case. They'll come up later. But she took her car with her children in the backseat of her car to John D. Long Lake and I guess put it in neutral or something down the dam, and that's how she killed her children.
She concocted a story that she was hijacked by a black male at a red light that was near my elementary school and said that he had taken the children, and her and her husband pled to the media. Do you remember how long it was she kept that story up?
[00:02:07] Speaker A: It wasn't incredibly long. And I think, realistically, the cops knew pretty quick.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it was Sheriff Wells. Right.
[00:02:18] Speaker A: Sheriff Wells, and he's a whole nother story of Union County. But, yeah, he investigated it, and I think it was only a few days. I didn't. But I remember everybody wearing, like, the little pins and, like, white ribbons. I remember that because for Alex and I cannot remember the other little.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Michael. Michael and Alex. Yeah.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: There was, like, a little picture of them everybody would wear.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: I know. I still vividly remember the photo with one of the little boys in, like, the rocking chair.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: Yeah. No, there was standing beside it.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: And I think that photo is what is at the memorial. Have you ever been by the memorial at John D. Long Lake?
I have. I've gone down there and looked at it.
So I remember the. When she was. When she was going on with that story. So I don't think I remember, like, the beginning, but I remember going to the Laundromat with my babysitter, Connie, at the time, and I just remember, like, she was so scared because I. I think. I mean, maybe law enforcement knew that she was lying, but I don't think the community did, to be honest.
I think the community really believed that there was, like, this danger to children in our hometown, because I just remember her holding my hand so tightly.
And it was the Laundromat by Galaxy. You know, where my sister used to.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: Work that laundry out in Monarch in Union. So she drowned her kids in, technically, Lockhart, I guess, which is kind of down the road. Monarch is where she said the hijacking happened. It was a light right at Monarch, like, Monarch Elementary Bethel Church right there.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: You know, I didn't even think about it till just now. But I wonder if that's why Connie was so scared, because of where we were as well. Because if she's saying the hijacking occurred in Monarch, that Laundromat is in Monarch. Yeah, I never thought about that, but it could be because it was so close to where she said it happened. But I remember seeing this person's face that didn't exist on the door going in. But I don't remember anything after that. I don't remember when it came out that she was guilty of doing this or when she confessed. And, of course, she later went to trial and was convicted by a jury.
Do you remember, like, when it all came out, that she did it?
[00:04:46] Speaker A: I remember. Okay. This is, like, everybody has, like, those moments, like, you know, where you were on nine, 11, you know. Right, right. Things happen. And, like, in our small community, I feel like she was one of those moments. And I remember sitting in the doctor's office. I don't know why I was there. I don't know if I had a cold. Whatever. I remember sitting in the doctor's office, and the nurse came in and told my mom that they just pulled the boys out of John D. Long Lake that they found.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. I just got cold chills.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: I remember that very vividly.
I mean, and, like, it was. We weren't much older than the boys, so it was a scary time.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: Crazy to think I. I know I don't remember the trial, but of course, I've read so many books and stuff like that with it just being union.
So apparently she was in the relate. She. She was. She was still married, but she was separated, and she was either dating a guy or they were talking. I don't know how serious it was before she committed this crime. And she. I guess he had wrote her a letter stating that, you know, he was breaking it off with her. And I remember the letter saying something about, like, he didn't want any children.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: Yeah. So she pretty much drowned her children for this man.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: And the whole time, like, this was going on, I will say, like, I have. I was only five or six, but I do remember things. And I remember this was at the same time a lot all this was happening was the O.J. simpson trial and my grandmother.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: I didn't know that until this week, but it was the same time.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: It was around the same time frame. And my grandmother loved true crime. So, like, I would be down at my grandmother's. This is my dad's mom. My nanny was. I'd be. And she lived in Monarch, too.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: Be sitting down there, and we'd be watching all this true crime stuff, watching all the news constantly. Her and my aunt actually got in a fight over if O.J. simpson did it or not kind of stuff. But I very vividly remember her saying that light, the light she claimed Susan was that Susan claimed she was hijacked at was emotion sensor light, and that if a car's there, you'll be red, but there'll be other people there, so you couldn't have been hijacked. If there's no car there, it's going to be green. And I think things like that Susan didn't think out when planning this whole thing. And I think kind of after us going to law school and like, learning, like, the one you practiced in it, but especially like in law school, like, seeing the criminal side of things and how your brain works. Like, she did the opposite of what every person should have done in a situation kind of thing. Like, I remember, like, the sketch artist, she didn't know a lot of details at first, and then as it progressed, she gave more details, which is like the opposite of usually true victims. They remember everything and then just. It kind of goes away.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: Like word vomit.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: Yeah. So she kind of did everything the opposite. And I think some of the things is what led the police to realize she wasn't a victim. But all of hers was a big fabricated lie.
[00:07:55] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
So they did see the death penalty in this case.
Do they know. Do we know how far in advance she planned it? Because, I mean, to me, it's clearly premeditated, because I know where that light is in Monarch. Like I said, I went to Monarch Elementary School. If you go straight at that light that she was at, or maybe if she was going towards Lockhart, she would have gone left. But my. It was right there. That's where I went to school. So to think about how far she had to drive, I imagine she probably lives more in town to drive to Monarch than to keep driving into Lockhart to this lake, you know, so to me, there's a good bit of time there where she is planning this. And I know she had said at one point she was also planning on going herself, she was going to die by suicide.
Do we. Is there any evidence that she planned it more in advance? Like days, weeks?
[00:08:54] Speaker A: I'm not sure on that side. I think when she got the letter, pretty much she, like a man was more important to her than her children is pretty much what happened. And she just decided she was gonna do those things. And then I think something that's interesting that a lot of people may not realize from the legal side of things is how death penalty cases work, because it is not like your regular trial. Like with the death penalty case, you. You have two trials. Pretty much you have your guilt or innocence, and then you have your death penalty phase. So it's like as an attorney preparing for trial, the whole time you're trying to prove them, I don't know, innocence, since I'm not in criminal law. But you're trying to, you know, give their best defense, and then you have to turn around if they're found guilty. Pretty much almost look like not a liar. But you're telling a whole different story. Right. Right inside two of the trial. And I think that's something that people don't realize here how we do, because most of the time in trials, the judge actually decides your sentence. Like, exactly. The jury doesn't say, oh, you're going to go to jail for three years for, you know, shoplifting. But in a death penalty case, the jury's actually deciding it.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: I think that's pretty different.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: It is. And I have to say that I do agree that she should not have got the death penalty, but that's more my personal beliefs. I have always said I can never say that I support the death penalty when I can't watch it. If I was invited to see someone's execution, I could not go. And so for me, I just don't believe I can support it. If I. If I couldn't even see something happen, if it would make me that upset and uncomfortable, I'd still see how I could support it.
So that's where I am with that. So I do Think the jury, in my opinion, I think the jury did the right thing and not giving her the death penalty. But with that, I. I do criminal defense. Y'all. Y'all know this is my job. I've said that. I am such a big empath. I have such an empathetic heart. I've talked to Lauren about the Menendez brothers and how I hope they're released. I hope they get out, because the abuse that they sustained and then they, you know, that they killed their abusers. I'm not saying that was the right thing by any means. It was very wrong. It was a crime. They should have been punished for that crime. But life without parole was not the appropriate sentence in their case.
In looking at all the facts, however, with Susan Smith, I do not believe she should get paroled. And Lauren, I don't know if I'll ever change my opinion on that.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: I do not think she should be either. I mean, I know she had a very hard life.
[00:11:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:42] Speaker A: I know that she was molested. I know that that had to be a big impact on her. I do feel like probably the system failed her by not getting her help. She needed during that time, dealing with her stress, but doing what she did was never the answer. So, I mean, like, she took two innocent lives, and then on top of it, I don't know if a lot of people know this. People went to go visit the site, and another family actually drowned going to the memorial site.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: Remember that?
[00:12:11] Speaker A: Well, she did not cause that at all. It still was the chain effect of that.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Right. I think it was like. It was like five or six people in a van and children circling back to that.
I think I remember years ago, you mentioning your mom. And it came back up this week as we were talking about her case, since, you know, she's set to have that parole hearing.
Your mom was on the witness list.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Yes. She possibly could have been a witness. My mom worked at Wallace Thompson Hospital at the time where Susan Smith was actually candy striper. And so my mom had got to know her and my mom had not. Like, pretty much they called my mom to ask, like, because, you know, she had this rough childhood, was molested, all this stuff. They almost want to put her on the stand as a witness for Susan Smith. But my mom ultimately said, I feel sorry for her, but what she did was wrong. I could never say, right, that was right. Like, I do feel sorry for everything that happened, but what she did. So. But during that time, one of the doctors that actually worked at the hospital was on the jury Pool. And she actually got called to be. She didn't know her. Like, they had no correlation. She didn't come till after. But anyways, my mom gets the call from the courthouse, and she's like, oh, no, they're just calling me to be a witness. Luckily, it was just the doctor saying, can you go figure out how to fix my schedule?
[00:13:37] Speaker B: Because, oh, my God, I'm gonna be on the jury.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: But no, my mom. For that, her heart dropped. I'm gonna be on the jury of this death penalty case.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Gotcha.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: Witness list.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: Sorry for the sirens in the background. Right now, I'm practiced right downtown Columbia, and there's a hospital nearby, so that's what's going on there.
So with the disclosure, I know you said she didn't get any help, so she. So this was disclosed.
Did.
I mean, legally? I don't know if we should go into who was accused. I mean, I feel like it's out there, though. But was anybody ever arrested for molesting her? I guess is the question.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: I'm not sure on that.
I just. I don't know. I can't remember. I'm sure in the trial, all that was brought up because I'm sure that was in the second part of it, like, why she should death penalty and that type of stuff. But, yeah, it's kind of crazy. When you're from a small town, something like this happens. And you remember it because it's 30 years now. So I remember that much time later. And what me and Lacey were talking about this week is another interesting fact from this case that a lot of people don't realize. She's the reason we now have a true life sentence in South Carolina, because.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't even know that.
I knew that we had true life sentence. You know, I've worked in a murder trial, and I knew with murder, you were not eligible for parole if convicted or if you pled.
But I didn't know that it was her case that changed that law. You actually. Yeah. You informed me of that this week.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: So one of the reasons they went in and updated the statute because it's pretty. All this monster that killed her. Two children could walk, freaking out. I don't think she will get parole. But that is out there, and it's. Well. And also, I think another thing people don't realize with the whole death penalty cases is you have to. As an attorney, I couldn't go try a death penalty case if I wanted to right now, because you actually have to be certified to try death penalty cases. There's only a small number of attorneys here that actually can try death penalty cases.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: One is a good friend of mine and Lawrence went to law school with him and he is working in capital defense.
But yeah, I'm glad she didn't get the death penalty. I mean, with the trauma that she faced. And I think the way I differentiate it from the Menendez brothers is they were so young. And I'm not saying she wasn't. I mean, I think they were like 19, 20, early 20s, and she was 23. And for me, in my opinion, I just think like, they, they couldn't figure out a way out.
And I've read some things about the mom and that she really did not love them. And things have come out about her being abusive towards them.
And I think just they made a horrible decision to try to get away from their abusers and ended up murdering them. And like I said, I do believe they should have been convicted and have served a prison sentence. I just don't agree with the extent of the sentence with Susan Smith. To me, it's different because she didn't lash out to escape abuse. And that's how I view the Menendez brothers that she had.
She was not in that situation anymore. She had gotten married, years had passed. And I know that she was untreated, but for me, it seems that she did this for a man. This wasn't. And I'm not saying her trauma didn't come into play. I abso. I absolutely think so. Because why else would a man be so important to keep? I think the trauma played into that for sure. I just do not think that is enough to parole someone, I guess is the end of the story. I think that she should serve the remainder of her life in prison.
And maybe it's just harder on me too, because I just remember seeing those boys faces for so long. I think, you know, just being around it and being from Union, I don't have as much empathy in that in this case, I don't know, but that's how, you know, I feel. And I definitely do not think she'll get paroled this time. I would be shocked to my core if she were paroled this first round. I don't know past that how it's going to go, but I would be very surprised if she were paroled this first hearing.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: I don't think she'll get parole. I mean, I think she's had. Her behavior in prison hasn't been outstanding from my understanding, and it could not be true. I. But I'm Pretty sure she got pregnant or something while in prison.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: I had heard that. I heard she did as well, from a guard. And I will say one of the news shows that I just watched about her parole hearing, I watched it last week with my husband. One of the guards that did have an affair with her was on there. So I had heard that rumor as well. I don't know if it's ever been substantiated, but I did hear the rumor she had another child in prison. I don't know how much truth there is to that.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: And my little. Since we are from a small town, everything relates. My admin probably won't like this, but my admin, Angie, I'm throwing her under the bus. She actually graduated high school with Susan Smith. So, like, it is such a small world we come from because we were talking about the other day and she was like, yeah, I graduated with her.
[00:19:19] Speaker B: I was like my social studies teacher, Mr. Jenkins. I remember being in seventh or eighth grade and we learned South Carolina history. And I guess she's part of that. But she was brought up. And he said that in high school she was voted most friendly.
So.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: Which Angie said the same thing. She said you would have never thought that at the time that she would do something like this. So I think it shocked everybody and I think it is. I don't think she'll get parole. And I think in a state like South Carolina, when big things happen, we all are affected. And I do think this impacted. No, it is not why either one of us became lawyers, but it definitely impacted us growing up knowing this. And then 30 years later here in South Carolina, we get Alex Murdoch killing his kid and wife. So great things happening here.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: So. Well, I don't think there's any thing else to add.
You know, once we hear back, maybe we'll come up on an episode and just briefly inform everybody that listens to this episode what happens at the parl hearing, if she does get parled or not. Like me and Lauren said, we don't believe that is going to happen, but we'll see and we'll update everybody once we see what that decision is.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: And we hope you got a little something about South Carolina criminal justice law from this to understand what's happening with her a little bit more. And we'll keep you updated.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Tune in next time. Bye, guys.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: Bye.
