Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
It's Lacey and I'm Lauren, and welcome to another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: And today we're going to be continuing our infamous Women. And we're going to talk about one that we think everybody knows about because, you know, there's a Lifetime movie and everything about her, but Mary Kay Letourneau.
So we're gonna dig into her. So we're not talking about murder and mayhem as much as, I guess, being a pedophile and sexual molester type person today. So just as a little background, if people don't know who Mary Kay is, she was the one that.
This was years ago, I think, in the 90s with her student, her male. She was a female, obviously, and had sex with her male student and became pregnant with him. And I believe he was only 12 or 13 years old at the time. The. This wasn't like he was 17, 18.
And she was already a mom of, I believe, four kids, well into her 30s at this point.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: He was 12.
He was in middle school.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: I knew he was young. It wasn't like this was like some borderline, were they an adult, Were they not Situation.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: And so pretty much, if you haven't, like, hold heard her whole life story, she does go to jail and different things, but when she gets out of jail, she ends up marrying him. And they were married till about 2018, I believe they separated. And then she passed away from cancer in 2020, but he was by her side when she passed away with cancer. So pretty much we're going to talk about her and all the legal implications. And I think some of this is going to be, how would we feel different today versus how would this have been different if she was a man?
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
You know, one thing that comes up when it's a female and you see this sometimes in shows, like TV shows I remember watching, like, you remember One Tree Hill, there was the male teacher in this situation and Sophia Bush, you know, they had that thing and it's like, oh, gosh, she gets the hot teacher and that's okay.
And there were other shows, I think that like back then in the 90s, you know, that would make it seem like, you know, if. If a guy got the hot teacher, like, high five more. So then this is wrong.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: Even in the 2000s, there's an episode of Glee and it's the blonde headed guy. I cannot think of his name. It's been too long since I've watched Lee sex. Is it Sam? I don't know Sam.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: He has sex with a teacher. And he feels violated by it. Like, you can tell, like, it. That he felt the teacher coerced him into it. But he was in the car with. I don't know if it was Finn or Puck or whatever other guy that was a guys guy kind of person. And, like, they were like, oh, that's cool.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: High five.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: But, like, it was no big deal. But also, I think Even in the 2000s, we've seen too much, like, teachers of, like, Pretty Little Liars, like, Arya and Ezra.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: And then I think we've all loved.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: The movie Never Been Kissed. I love Drew Barrymore, and I honestly love that movie. And now I look at it and I'm like, dang, this is problematic because it is in that movie. Granted, she's an adult. She's, like, 25 years old, but she's posing as a high school student, and her teacher falls in love with her. Now, maybe it is because she's more mature and that type stuff, but he still thinks she's 17 years old.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: And I just do feel like we've gotten to a better place of understanding that when somebody holds a position of power, it's. And it's wrong. It's still coercion. Even if the other person is like, hey, I might want to do this. They're not old enough to really think that way. I feel like we've progressed a little more with those situations. I think we still have a longer way to go.
And so I think. Timing of this case, I think.
I think it would be a lot worse today. I really do. I could be wrong, but I do think it would be worse for her today. I mean, think thinking back to her sentencing and the fact that she was pregnant and had two children by this kid. She's having children with a child.
I mean, her sentence was pretty lenient.
So she got. Yeah. Do you want to jump in?
[00:04:22] Speaker B: I was gonna say, like, in this situation, like, she.
My mind blanked. I really think realistic. I'm getting old, y'.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: All.
[00:04:32] Speaker B: I think realistically, you know, he was 12. But I think a lot of times we think about.
I think we see this a lot. Can a man be raped? Because the man has to have the reaction, like a female obviously has to do nothing to be raped. Like you can. Right?
I don't want to talk about. But there's the issue.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Can.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: A lot of times I think we've seen. And she's like, can a man be raped? Because at that point, he was ready to do that. But I just want to help it. Just because there's A physical reaction does not mean that it's not rape.
[00:05:05] Speaker A: Right. That does not indicate consent. Especially with somebody that's that young, you can't consent.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Well, right. Like for one, he can't consent. But even if he'd been 18 and said, she raped me because I didn't want to have sex, just because a physical thing happened doesn't make it okay. So I think, man, I think kind of in this whole situation, men can get raped like.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: And it doesn't have to be raped through sodomy. They can be raped with normal like break, like Right, right. Sex. And I think that's kind of the point I want to make in there too is I think that's how we see men so different too than women is the fact that a lot of people still have the assumption men just can't get raped.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And like looking. So she got six months when she pled and when she. But she had other time hanging over her head. But when she got out, she was supposed to not have any contact with him.
I think by this point she had one kid by him.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: No, she originally was pregnant. So this is what I want to ask you about is criminal. So yes, when she pled guilty, she was pregnant with his child. This is how all of it was found out pretty much was her husband.
So it gets really gross if you want to go read her like comments.
But pretty much she was like in elementary school and had had this kid as a elementary school student and had feelings for him, right? Well, yeah. Yes, as a teacher. So when he got older and he was 12 and I guess could have, you know, more adult relations even though he shouldn't have been. He could have then she had these relations with him. And how it all came out was her husband found out she was pregnant and it wasn't. He is pretty much. So yes, she went and she ended up playing and she was supposed to have like the six years like Lacey said, got suspended to six months.
My question is for you as criminal defense. If a woman is pregnant in a criminal situation, could they have done forced her to do some type of blood test? I don't know how it works while I was in utero, but done a paternity test while in utero or could they force it once the baby had arrived to see if there really was this was his kid for statutory rape?
[00:07:18] Speaker A: That's going to be a state by.
I think it's more state issued. So I think living in South Carolina and us being so conservative, I think the state could definitely Subpoena that information and try to get that information for paternity and try to get that evidence.
I do not believe that our judges here, being a more conservative state, would agree to anything that would potentially cause the, a potential miscarriage to get it while in your utero. I do believe it would be something that state would have to wait for when the baby is born.
I can see some states going a little farther, but I, I just think that most of the time it's going to be, have to, they're going to have to wait until the baby is born.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: That's what I was thinking too because I feel like if a state forces you to do something and it forces a miscarry, like if you had to do like something that messed with the uterine stack or whatever, like the fluid and you force her to have a miscarriage. I don't feel like that whether you agree with what she do is right or wrong, that's, I don't think it's right to make her force a miscarriage in this situation.
But I just wasn't sure.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: I mean, if I were a judge, and I am not as conservative as our laws with, with that right, but if I were a judge, I still would not allow it until after the baby was born because I just, I would almost feel like it was on me if something happened, you know, and I wouldn't want that. When you can just safely get the results and you might have to delay the process. Yes, but unless the defendant being charged wants to do it and consents, but then you're not dealing with the judge. Like if they consent to having the.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: Testing done, like if she really hadn't done it and she knew 100 it was her husband's right, she wanted to say, I'll go ahead and submit to a test now so I can prove the paternity. Right.
That's a different situation then.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Trying to use it to prove statutory rape.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: Right.
But what sends her to prison is when she got out and was supposed to be doing a sex offender program and have no contact, they found her with him again and she got pregnant again.
And that's the only reason she was sent to prison for seven years.
And first off, if a 30 year old man impregnated a 12 year old, their offer initially ain't gonna be six months, I'll tell you that.
And I will further tell you if for some reason he got out on probation, parole or had some kind of a split sentence like that, like this much active time suspended to probation when you get out and they are caught with them and get them pregnant again.
It is going to to be over 10 years, over 15 years probably. But like the sentence is so lenient and I, I do think it is be. I mean we, we know, we don't think, we know it's because she's female but I, I do think it would have been worse today. I don't know if it would still be as much as a male for, you know and I think that might go back to what you were kind of talking about with biology and I don't agree with that.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: I think realistically if we saw this 30 something year old teacher and he's a teacher and I feel like, I don't know, I feel like teachers, preachers, people like that, that like hold themselves out as being there for youth. I think they need to be held to a higher standard because they are there not in the laws. But I think just like you should be able to trust your child going to like school with the teacher and not being scared of the man. Right. But I think at least saying a 30 year old teacher get a 12 year old girl pregnant and everybody on the Internet would cry for him to be castrated. Yeah, I mean we would say that is disgusting.
[00:11:08] Speaker A: Absolutely. And it is just treated so differently.
So yeah, so I, I definitely have problems. And what's so crazy about this too is when she gets out of prison at this point he is an adult and they got married so and you can't help but think of the psychology, you know behind it and you know the impact it probably made on, on him and going through this and just not really thinking clear.
[00:11:44] Speaker B: Well, I mean like yes, she's saying oh well obviously it was true love because you know he waited for me like and I think he did wait for I, he waited till she got out of prison. And yes they got married and they were married for quite a while. I mean they didn't separate to like 10 or 12 years after their marriage. And even then I don't think they fully sep. I mean I think they were still there for you.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: Yeah, for me I think he was a victim of it the whole time because he even then and so like it just thinking he had two kids as a child. I mean as a 13 year old boy he has a baby. By 15 he's got two babies.
So what's going to make this easier? Raising them? Oh if I get with the mom I can be a part of my kids lives and I have help raising them. And I do think his family Stepped in to help, too. But it's just like when you're 18, 19 years old, it makes sense to me in. In his line of thinking. Right. That I have two kids with this woman. I need to just be with this woman because then she can help me raise these kids. Because he's been so young and that responsibility should have not been put on him during that time.
So. Yeah. So I just think it definitely altered his entire childhood. Adulthood. I don't think he ever got a true childhood. Like, she stole that and took that away from him. And from things that I've watched, it does seem like the kids are good and are in a really good place and like, they had a normal upbringing and I am grateful for. But he didn't get those things.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: No. He was a baby having a baby.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Like. Yeah.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: And I think kind of, like there's kind of been some stuff after the fact that she's doing this really gross. She's passed away. We all know she died from cancer, so you don't want to speak ill of the dead. But she was gross because after she got out, they didn't do a whole lot. They did write a book. So then that's another issue. She did profit off her crimes, but he was the co author, so I'm pretty sure, like, because of that, he was the victim. He could write the story.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Right, too.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: They had a Hot for Teacher Night. So like, at a local club, she dj. He was a dj. She came up and like, they made a ton of money on a thing called Hot for Teacher Night. And a ton of people went to it. And that just really discussed me because.
Did you feel bad about what you did at all when you're hosting a night and, like, encouraging this behavior and especially, like, I don't know, maybe things could be seen different if we were, you know, she was 21 and he was 17. You know, we might see things completely different.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: She was in her 30s and her. She had kids his age, like, children. I don't know, like, the thought, like, of somebody. I'm a girl mom, so like, I'm already, like, hyper vigilant on stuff. And I think I worry about everything.
But even, like, I guess sometimes you think is that, like, Lacey's a boy, Mom. You don't have to worry quite about that stuff as much, but really you do because there are terrible women out there that will do disgusting things just like men.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think because of biology, like, my kids could be passed over a lot easier and actions justified because they are boys.
And that's just not okay.
But yeah, I just, I definitely think she got a pass because of the time and even more so because she was a female. I do still believe that females get more lenient sentencing in these situations. And for me personally it really deals with age.
I'm with you Lauren. If somebody, I mean, let's think about it, 22, you can be a teacher, you've graduated from college, maybe somebody graduated early from college and high school, they're 20, 21 years old.
If there's a senior that's 18, we're not going to view it as much in that controlling role, you know, of a teacher. Like they have a power, you know, for, and use it to say that, you know, they use their part as a teacher over this person to make it happen.
So for me, I definitely think age plays a huge factor, which I think this is why this case bothers me so much because she's in her 30s and this is a 12 year old child. You know, my nieces, I've got one that's 14 and one that's 13 and I would lose it if anything happened to them by a teacher. So I definitely think that that plays a big role too.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: I think age is a huge thing and I think yes, if we had seen like we talked about the reverse with a man and a 12 old, I think we all can see it's not good. But there is more of a past when there is like there's that 20, 18 year old because in law school there was a girl that started law school and she was only 19 because she graduated high school early, she graduated college early. So if she'd been in education she very easily could have been a teacher at 19, just very, very smart. So she obviously could have been, I don't think she would have fell in love with her 17 year old student or if she did, she was smart enough not to act until he graduated. But I do think there's a very big difference. But I think if we had seen a male teacher with a 12 year old, we would have really thought about how she was.
I mean she might not even be in puberty yet to where she could go through that. And that's something he probably had just started being able to even have those thoughts. And at 12 I feel like there's a big difference between how you see your teachers at 12 and how you see your teachers at 1718.
Like at 1718 I was very shy and introvert, but I think I still could have been strong enough to go to my parents and say, this teacher put a move on me and I'm uncomfortable. Where at 12, you don't think about those things. You're thinking, this is my teacher. This is my safe space. Like, I remember like, you know, getting sick at school or something. And you go to your teacher because you need that safe space. And that's who they were. They were a parent type figure and especially thing in the female to male world. Like, he probably saw her as a mom.
[00:18:06] Speaker A: Like, absolutely.
Yeah. And I agree. Like, I remember in elementary school, I busted my lip on the seesaw and our PE coach, he came over and grabbed me and immediately carried me inside to the nurse so that way I could get help because I was bleeding and everything. And, you know, just think about that. Like, that is what we think of with teachers. We get hurt and they save us and put us in safe spaces to get us help.
And I remember being sick one time and just my mom, she. She had to go to work, so it's just really hard for me to miss. And it's always sometimes hard for her to find somebody. And I know, I agree, don't send a sick kid to school, so get. Single parenting is hard too. But my teacher knew my mom and knew the situation that she was in with work and stuff, so she just let me sit in the corner of the classroom and sleep all day in a beanbag chair. You know, these are the stories we should be hearing about teachers, not this. No.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: And there are so many teachers that are such good people, such wonderful teacher. We are definitely pro teachers here and think y' all do so much.
But things like this do seem to just tarnish a reputation. Like attorneys. We get bad reputations all the time. We're not worried if somebody talks about how we suck, because there are a lot of bad attorneys. There's a lot of good ones too.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: Right?
[00:19:20] Speaker B: We just have that reputation. But teachers aren't supposed to have that reputation. And you see these stories and you see how so much stuff gets ran away with.
So one thing has been that was in the news was mine and Lacey's actual high school band teacher was arrested for this type stuff.
[00:19:37] Speaker A: That was dismissed and expunged preliminary hearing.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: And I honestly think he did it and got off with it because he hit a girl on the butt when we were in high school. He said it was because she had a bug owner. I don't care she had a bug on her. Unless she was about to die. You. You were sticking her with the EpiPen, which you still didn't have to Stick in her butt. You could have stuck it somewhere, El.
So I still think there are people that get off with this and shouldn't because I think he's a pervert. I. He gave me the creeps the whole time.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: I could not stand him switching gears to Saluda County.
One of the reasons this came up is there was a teacher. She is. These are allegations. This. She's accused. So we don't know everything. But the sear at Saluda High School is facing multiple charges including two counts of second degree criminal sexual conduct with minor, second degree assault and battery and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. In this article, it doesn't say how old she is, how old the student is. So like we've said, that really does play a factor, I think into what that should be as far as sentencing if the allegations are true. But that's kind of what brought this case up with this being in the news this past week, a female teacher in our home state being arrested for these types of allegations.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: There was another situation and I think this is completely unfair to a female teacher. It happened in our hometown. A female teacher had nude pictures on her phone to send to her husband, her very much of aged husband. And they were on her personal phone. And she got in a lot of trouble because the students got into her phone and they saw the pictures.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: She used to go to my church.
[00:21:18] Speaker B: And I don't know her personally, I don't know anything about her. But like they were.
I'm never gonna stick a nude picture on my phone because the Internet and everything.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: I'm not, I don't want to see myself naked to begin with. But anyways, she had the complete right to send these pictures to her husband. They were for her husband. She is an adult. He is an adult. And her phone was not a school issued phone. It was her personal phone. These kids breached her privacy and yet she's the one that gets in trouble.
[00:21:46] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: And that really bothers me too because I do feel like there's two hands for women. Like, yes, like Mary Kay should have had a lot more trouble. But this woman, I feel like because she was a woman, she shouldn't have any sexuality or anything like that. Oh, exactly.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
She was like shamed for it when these were her private photos for her adult male husband. Yeah.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: And this wasn't even like she was sending them to some random guy that wasn't. These were her husband. I mean, I don't. I just feel like she had such a. Where if a man had had a picture of his private stuff and the girl had went through his phone, it would have been a tip, a different situation.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
So I think that wraps us up for this episode we're continuing on our women involved in Crime criminal activity next week. So follow along. And if there's anybody y' all want us to cover, like we said, drop us a message or comment below and let us know.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: Or if you want us to talk about Mr. And Mrs. Murder, the song Hulu, because I just finished that and literally I could not go to bed last night because I had to watch it. Y' all go watch that because we'll do something on that in the future because that is an insane one. And I love how justice was delayed for so much time.
And it is just intense from the legal perspective, too. So go look at that. We'll get on that sometime. But yes, if you have women, drop us a line.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: All right, thanks. Bye.
