Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Hey, everybody, it's Lacey, and I'm Lauren, and we're here with another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: And so today, Lacey's going to start with a little story. I will say I am recovering from COVID right now, so I am not in my normal attire or my normal makeup. So if you are actually watching this, I apologize for you having to see me look this way. Or if you're listening to sound this way. So anybody out there, we're in the big time of flu, Covid, all that. Wash your hands. I still remember this time. Me and Lacey were in a McDonald's bathroom, and this little girl came up to us. This is when we were in college. She was this little bitty girl. And we came out of the stall and she goes, wash your hands.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: I remember that.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: I want to instill that in all of you. Wash your hands, because this junk is rough. But Lacey is going to start us with a story today, and then I'll tell you what we're talking about.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: So, Lauren, they texted me from the school from Mac. Mac is my 3 year old and said that he fell at the playground. And that's pretty much all the information I got other than he was fine. And he. The left side of his face was, you know, pretty scratched up. So when I got there, and I'm gonna change the names of the kids for the purposes of the story, but so I get him. And he said. I said, Mac, what happened at school? He said, sally pushed me. I said, oh, I'm sorry. Was it an accident or did she do it on purpose? And he said, an accident. And I'm just like, okay, whatever. And also, I felt if there was anything intentional, the teacher would have for sure told me. So, you know, I didn't care. I just went on about my day. Well, that night, my husband came home from his basketball game. I said, oh, look at Max face. He goes, what happened? I said, sally pushed him. And then he's like, oh. And then Mac goes, it wasn't Sally. It was Ben. Ben pushed me. And I go, I thought you said it was Sally. No, Ben. Mommy. No. Mommy, no. Phoebe pushed me down. Phoebe's our dog. So we went from Sally pushing him to Ben pushing him. And then Phoebe somehow went to school with him and pushed him. And that's how I got injured. So today I'm telling his teacher, and her husband is a law enforcement officer. So I'm saying, and this is why you can't always rely on children for testimony and credibility. And she laughed and So I told her, you know, about Sally, Ben, and Phoebe. And she goes, actually, it was Chance. Chance is the one that he had the incident with. So it wasn't even any of the kids that he mentioned. And clearly it wasn't our dog. So, you know, I just think that's important to note. We always want to believe our kids, right? We always want to believe our children, but they are children. And so we. I went to a seminar in Seattle last summer, and the statistics for how often parents, teachers could determine whether kids. I don't want to say lie, because I think lion's intentional. And I clearly don't think Mac was intentionally lying. Right.
But maybe not always comprehend what's going on around them and remembering details throughout the day. And so. But yeah, so it was like 65, I think, is one of the highest that they had for determining whether or not a child was being truthful. So it's just very low. So I just thought it was an interesting story. And to tie that in, we are digging into. Do you want to let everybody know? Lauren? Yeah.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: So I will add to that and say that Maddie, she's also three. She will come home from school and her story gets more elaborate as we go. It was back in the fall. It was.
I went to Time out and I'm like, why I throw a pumpkin? As the night progressed, we realized she threw a pumpkin at another kid's face, which is why we went to Time out and we hit him in the face and asked the teacher the next day. She was like, I think she was just playing, but still. And I was like, yeah, it's good she went to Time Out. So kids do tend to.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: They're on version. But today we're going to be talking about one of the most famous cases that we do have siblings and children involved in it, and it's the JonBenet Ramsey case. So Lacey's gonna kind of give us some. And there is a new Netflix documentary out. So if you are into this, definitely check that out. But Lacey's gonna start us off with this one.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: And so just briefly, I feel like most people listening to this are familiar with JonBenet. So. JonBenet, I can't remember how old she was. Like, around five years old. She was found murdered in her home in her basement in Boulder, Colorado. So what happened was, is the family woke up. They found a ransom note on the stairs. If you ever want to see JonBenet again, you have to give me X amount of dollars. And they called the police. The police did not do they. They didn't close off the crime like the potential crime scene. Clearly they didn't know that she was deceased inside the home at this point. But they came over, the Ramsey's invited friends over. They're trying to figure out this ransom note, who it is. Waiting for a call. They're trying to search the house. It was a really big house.
So the dad goes, I'm going to start in the basement and look again. And. And that's when he finds JonBenet on the floor. And she had been strangled.
So they found her. Her deceased. And that is when, of course, the investigation began. There's been many theories over the years. I remember there was a special a few years ago, and it was supposed to be about the FBI. I don't know if I think they were FBI agents like retired or something like that. And they had determined it was Burke. They said it was Burke Ramsey had to have been her brother. And their biggest theory, because the family statement was coming back from a family party Christmas Eve night. And then they went to bed, but they found, I think it was pineapple in her belly. And they had determined, like, oh, her. And Bert got up, had a snack, and then he just got mad at her and killed her. And so there was. And then there was the intruder theory that somebody broke into the home. The ransom amount was somewhat close to the dad. Mr. Ramsey's amount, like a bonus check or something like that. Wasn't like on the dot, but I think it's pretty close to that. So there's all kinds of theories in this case. And the biggest thing I want to talk about today is the mom, Patsy, kind of walk through some of the horrible things that happened to her. I truly believe it was an intruder. The reason I believe it was an intruder is because there. I feel like the cops that were initially involved got such tunnel vision and they were so determined it had to have been an inside job. They. The scene was totally contaminated. There is DNA. There's DNA in this, in this case, and it has not matched anyone.
[00:07:10] Speaker B: Sorry.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: It hasn't matched Burke. It hasn't matched the dad. It hasn't. It doesn't match Patsy. She was sexually assaulted with an object as well, but nothing has ever matched them. Where she was found in the basement, there was a broken window. There was a suitcase by the window that somebody would have stepped on to get out. They also a detective that was called in, that was the only detective from what I remember that's actually worked prior homicides to look at this case a lot of the police that came forward to spit out these theories that it was the parents or the brother, they had not worked prior homicides. So.
So, yeah, so he's the one that's, like. Is absolutely an intruder. He. He fought very hard for what he says was the truth. And I truly believe his theory of the case that was an intruder and that I don't know if they will ever find it. What I also found interesting in the documentary is JonBenet was involved in the beauty pageant scene, and she did dance. There was another girl in her dance class, and somebody broke into her home. And the mom woke up and found this person standing over her. I think he was about to. To rape her or take her. I can't remember exactly when she walked in, but she was able to. To hit him and get hit. I think she maced him or something like that and able to leave. And they were pretty close within a couple months of each other. And they were both, like I said, in the same dance class. So that, again, is a reason that I believe the intruder story. So.
And moving forward, if this truly was an intruder, I want to talk about all the horrible things that Patsy went through.
They accused Patsy of being involved in killing her own child. And one of the reasons they said it was.
Well, one thing they. They hated on her for was pageantry, that she put her daughter out as a sex symbol because she was doing pageants. And. And, Lauren, we're both in the South. Clearly, pageants are so big here, and I'm guessing maybe they weren't in Colorado, but I just. If this had happened when they did live in the South, I mean, maybe the media would have blown it up. I mean, what do you think? I just. Yeah.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: Pageants. Wow. I do not plan on putting my little girls in pageants. I probably do not believe in a lot of what they are and what they stand for.
Just for me, if you want to do them, that's cool. But, yes, here in the South, I mean, you go to the local fair, and fairs are huge here. There's a pageant that goes with the fair. There is a pageant. Me and Lacey were in the Miss UHS pageant.
So pageants are just a big thing. And I mean, we've all seen toddlers in tiaras, and that is a big thing in the South. I mean, as much as Honey Boo Boo and all that. I mean, people do spend a ton of money putting their little girls in pageants. And it is not to be a sex symbol. It is just what we do here, I guess.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: And I think some girls and then into it really enjoy it. Like my niece Chloe. She did one. I think she was okay in it. Like she was. But it. I can't see Chloe ever doing another pageant as she gets older. It's just not her cup of tea. But Maya really enjoyed that pageant and she really enjoys learning how to do makeup and lashes and stuff like that. I could totally see her doing a pageant again. Our sweet mate in college was really big in pageants. She loved it. She loved fashion, she loved the outfits.
And I. I do. I think it just gave her her confidence. Right. We all have to find things that give us our confidence. And I think pageantry is something that I've personally seen give women their confidence. And you know, talking about my sweet mate, she's got a daughter and I don't think her daughter has done pageants. I don't think I've seen photos, maybe when she was little. But she is very much into sports and an athletic and she just supports her kid and what her interests are. And I think her mom did the same when she did pageants. So like, for me thinking about pageants and stuff like that, it is. It's a. It's a hobby that some women enjoy and I think some moms enjoy doing with their children if they like that kind of thing. It's. I don't think in the south it's any different from swimming, basketball and stuff like that.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: And mother, it's not a sport, but it is a sport. It's a lot of times down here in the south, dads are taking their kids, their sons fishing, I mean, and the moms are taking their daughters to pageants. That's just kind of, you know, Saturdays in the south sometimes.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: And they would hate on her because of the outfits that JonBenet would be in that you are putting her in and her being sexualized. First off, let's all admit that it is very common to see a kid in a bikini at the beach. I don't think there's much difference in my opinion from the beach to the stage. A problem as far as wardrobe goes, the problem is from someone who is perceiving a child sexually, that's the problem. That's what's wrong. And that's going to happen whether someone is fully clothed or in a bikini, whether it's a child or an adult, you know, being perceived that way. I just, I remember when I was like seven or eight months pregnant and I had to go to the jail and I was pregnant with Mac and I was Fully clothed in maternity clothes. I was in flip flops because my feet were so small. 1. So when I say I did not look my best, let me tell you, I did not look my best. I went to the jail that day and had to go in several dorm rooms. I saw a minimum of three to four penises like men watching me and doing what you know, to do. I'm not going to say it. And I was so disgusted and just annoyed. And I want. I was like, I mean is what it is. But I was fully clothes. I was fully dressed. There's nothing in my perception I did not feel, you know, my sexiest for sure. But that's how they. And so that's the problem. They were the ones with the problem, not me. And so if anybody looks at a child in pageantry or on the beach in a bikini and has those thoughts, they're the problem. They're the pedophile. They're. But it's like they tried to place that on Patsy and you know, I mean, every mom, I think has what they think is appropriate for their kids. And I think that's a case by case basis. But this is something I feel like I think she used to do. Pat. Yeah, she did pageants. It's something she enjoyed. She had already been through cancer once and it sounds like this is just something she wanted to share with her daughter. And you could personally disagree as a mom that you would not want your kid to wear that at that age. And that's fine. We all have our own opinions in that. But to take it to the extent that she's the problem with pedophilia. No, I highly disagree. And that was just so inappropriate to do and put her through.
[00:14:29] Speaker B: I agree on that. I mean, I think it is. I mean when my kids go to the beach, we're covered up a lot because my mother in law passed away. Melanoma. So sunscreen. But you know, this was the 90s and people were not as concerned about certain things. Like if you are at the beach, I think we see less babies in bikinis now because we're worried about. We're putting them in SPF shirts. We are trying to protect them. So I think if you go back to the 90s, I remember, yes, my mom would put sunscreen on me, but she didn't lotion me up in it. It just was a different time period. I think in the 90s and I think pageants were big and little girls in pageants had to wear flashy outfits that those moms spent tons of Money on it. Just in the hair and the makeup. I mean, we're coming out of the 80s with, like, the big hair, glam life. So I think it's just the time frame, too. They're in.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: Yeah. But, you know, they blamed her. If it was somebody that was watching the. Oh, it was because of what you put her in. No, no. Because guess what? Fully clothed kids also get taken by pedophiles. That is. There's a. What was that? They found her, but she was, like, kidnapped for, like, 10 years. I can't think of her name off the top of my head, but it's another big, big case. But she was taken off her bicycle, you know, and by a pedophile, you know, so, like, that's not it. I hated that they put the blame on her. And then they did. It was so mortifying. In the documentary that just came out, Patsy said she was watching TV and there was a talk show and they decided to do a mock trial on who killed JonBenet. And they determined that it had to have been Patsy. And they went into the pageants and then they showed a cl. And then there was this, like, psychiatrist or psychologist. And she goes, yeah, it's very disturbing. She was clearly being sexually abused. Because in one of the videos, home videos we've seen, she's humping a saxophone. And then they play this video, and Patsy's just scrolling through and finds this show, and she's watching it from her home. Her daughter has been murdered. And they're saying how she did it, because they show the clip, Lauren, and she's just doing this rocking back and forth with the saxophone. Just like we see when you do, like, blues bands and stuff like that.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Bill Clinton going on Essen or not or whatever, Saturday Night Live years ago with Jay Leno playing his saxophone.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: Like, it was just. It. It was like, that's not sexual at all. But that in this case, they tried to make everything with John Bone asexual.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: And it was all too. I mean, like, this is gross, but it is what it is. Children do things that we don't want them to do because we think that's adultish. But children, they explore themselves. Toddlers, young. I mean, they just are getting to know their bodies.
And so even if they are doing something like that, that doesn't mean they're assaulted. It just means they have curiosities.
And as parents, we don't want to know about those curiosities. But they do have those.
[00:17:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And it's just. I just felt so bad for her in that documentary, you know, because I do. I think this is just something she did and she loved. And when she went through cancer, she just wanted to. And yes, she had a son first. And I. I love being a boy mom. I. She may have as well, but, you know, I think she enjoyed having a girl, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, too. It sounded like in documentary she did stuff that Burke liked to do and she enjoyed those things. But her upbringing and her hobbies to see her daughter, that's special. And I have boys, and I love when my boys are into things that I, too, am into. It's just so special. I love when they have their individual likes, too, and likes with my husband. But when I can relate to an activity with my kid, it just. It brings me a lot of joy. And I think that's all that. What that's all there. There was to this pageantry is just that this was something she enjoyed doing. And to see her daughter enjoy doing it and being able to share it was fun. And like, l. Show choir a couple years, and I did theater in my past and also band and music. And so just to have him, like, enjoy it and have fun was something that I did. I mean, I was so excited to take him every week. And, you know, now he's doing volleyball, and I've never played volleyball. I don't have that same connection. I think he enjoys it, for sure, but I don't have, you know, the same joy in sharing that with him as I did, you know, with show choir. And what's most important is his joy. So I always do anything that brings him his joy. But it is just different when you can connect to an activity that, you know that you did as well. And I just hate that they just made that into something that it absolutely wasn't.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: And then I think the hard part in all this, if you are the mom in this situation, I'm not sure, like, I don't have an opinion on Jon Monet, who did it as much, because this was not. I don't know. I love True Crime, but she was not one of my stories. I think because she was a child. I think it was too much for me. I can watch the Menendez brothers, I can watch OJ I can watch all these adults all day, but something about her just. I couldn't. But I think as a mom, if she truly was innocent and you saw how the media portrayed you, how would that make you? I mean, right.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: You on top of navigating your Daughter being murdered, like, it's just so many layers. And you know, Patsy has since deceased. Like, she did die from. From cancer recently. They did.
John Ramsey, right? That was the dad's name.
He came out like last week. I think he's on the Today show. You texted Lauren that, you know, he met with the police and he felt like it was going in a good direction. It's kind of all the information we have now. But, you know, she just endured so much that I can't imagine as a mom. Like, I can't imagine. Oh, God. Losing my kid and then just to see if she truly was. Had nothing to do with this, which I don't believe she did. To have also endured all of that was just so unnecessary. And even when you're solving the crime that you just don't. I mean, she was literally on Larry King and one of the detectives looked at her and was like, you killed your daughter. And she's like, what evidence do you have? Like, what makes you think that I killed her? And he's just like, you murdered your daughter. And he's just like telling her this on this Larry King show. And she's also. They're also hated so much for going in front of the media, too.
And I don't know. I mean, I don't. I think there were some things that made it worse. But she was also under, like, she had a lot of drugs. Like, she was taking a lot of antidepressants and stuff like that because her daughter was murdered. And so she was, I believe, impaired on some of the things that she went on. That was probably not the best. I think they had the best intentions, though. Like, people were telling them they needed to do this and they were just trying to listen to people that, you know, knew better than them.
And it just made some things look bad. But I've always said with situations like this, you don't know how you're going to be. You don't know how you're going to react. And let's hope we never do, right? Let's hope we never have to know. How would we react and how would we be and if it would be, quote, unquote, normal or abnormal behavior, because you don't know unless you walk in those shoes and it's shoes none of us ever want to walk in.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: Well, and I will say, kind of watching all this and even now, like, there are still crazy theories coming out with JonBenet to this day. Like, I saw a post on social media. It was on Facebook, I think that had like JonBenet and a woman. And it was supposed to be that woman that was with Epstein. I can't.
[00:22:38] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: You know what I'm talking about the black headed lady. And I'm like, this is kind of crazy we're still spending like these wheels like this today. Because I think people like just the chaos of it too, and bringing it up. And like, the dad still hasn't went through the scrutiny the mom has, though. Like on the Today show, I did watch that clip. He was literally on it for 10 minutes and he was just like, I think the police are doing a good job. And they're like, nothing about. Did you have anything to do with it? They didn't harass him in the same ways. They harassed the mom.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, also, I think the media has changed a little too.
If you go back to those. The times of the 90s like you were saying, it was, it was so much more sexualized and hatred on women. You know, you. We both taught. We both watch Friends, right. And on Friends, there's fat Monica. And we both agree that in today's world, there wouldn't be a fat Monica. You know, we really are trying to embrace our bodies for what they are, and we. It doesn't matter your size. It just matters that you're healthy. Right. And so that's really the push now. Whereas the 90s was significantly different. You had.
It was so diet culture. And I remember when Kim Kardashian got pregnant and they're like, oh, it's a whale, it's Shamu. And it was just, I mean, some of. If you go back and look at tabloids, not even involved in this case. The media was a huge problem in general, not even just with this case. So, yeah, they definitely were harder on the mom for sure, but the media just was really bad at that time with, with women.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: And I think in the future we're going to dig into that with Marcia CLARK and the O.J. case, how, you know, she was treated so differently as a woman prosecutor than how they've treated the man.
One funny thing I did see when we've been talking, I know recently we dropped our episodes about the Menendez brothers.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: So as I was scrolling through social media today to kind of wrap up our True Crime, like all this stuff together, there was a post where Kim Kardashian was talking about her dad used to play tennis with the Menendez brothers. So we got the Kardashian from the O.J. you know, he was their attorney. And then we heard them playing tennis with the Menendez brothers. I'm like, such a small world in, you know, Hollywood.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: Right?
Well, that kind of wraps up what this episode. Like I said, I just. You can listen to so many podcasts about this case. If you're interested, you can find several. You can find so much information online. I just wanted to do one since this is Law Mama podcast to focus on the mom in this case and everything that she endured in and truly think about it. If she is innocent, which I firmly believe, you know, she is.
You know, looking forward, I know we're going to talk a little bit more about conservatorships and how we see in pop culture. It seems there's more on women than men.
I also talked to my grandma. She listened to the Susan Smith case and she had some stories that I'm gonna share. So we got some good stuff coming forward. OJ Still. So thanks for listening and we look forward to talking to y'all more about our perspective on some of these things and that these cases that we've grown up around and then starting a new series. And Lauren, I hope you feel better.
[00:26:07] Speaker B: Thank you. And remember to subscribe to us wherever you get your podcast or on YouTube and definitely DM us if you have any things you want to know about legally or just in general or any topics you want us to cover. And we'll be happy to look at that. But we hope you all have a great day. Bye, guys.
