Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Foreign.
[00:00:05] It's Lacey. And unfortunately, no Lauren. She woke up with a migraine. And this is our only time to record right now because my associate is on vacation, so I'm a little short staffed. I didn't have a lot of time this week, so unfortunately it's a solo episode of the Llamas podcast, so. So today I want to jump on and talk about are we ever done learning?
[00:00:30] And it comes from just something that happened in court yesterday.
[00:00:34] I'm not going to say which court or name which attorneys, but I observed something and I think it's worth noting.
[00:00:44] I've been practicing law now for almost 15 years.
[00:00:50] It's crazy to say that, and saying that actually makes me feel very old.
[00:00:55] But I'm always learning, right?
[00:00:58] The laws change. I have to know those changes in the law. And I also know just that there's certain things I can bring to the table and have in depth knowledge of. And other attorneys have that same thing.
[00:01:10] But something that happened yesterday is I was in court with several attorney friends, many at the table chit chatting about different things, cases, life, kids.
[00:01:23] And so sitting there. And then a case was called and another attorney got up to the podium that we didn't recognize.
[00:01:32] And it was just unusual things were happening for that courtroom. Like everybody I was at the table with, we are there in that court all the time. We're all Columbia lawyers, Lexington lawyers. So, like, we're just in that specific court a good bit.
[00:01:48] We see each other. Everybody I was talking to, we see each other all the time. But this other attorney is just not in that courtroom.
[00:01:55] And what was going on in the plea was pretty detrimental to the defendant. And it's just not something we see often.
[00:02:03] And so the. There was a recommendation of jail time in a sentence, and so that kind of threw us off with what the charge was because, like, again, this is just not something we typically see. And so one of the lawyers at the table who's in that court all the time, probably more than me, or at least equivalent, she is just always so helpful.
[00:02:25] And this attorney is just such a girl's girl. What I mean by that is she is just there to help anybody at any time, defendant, attorney, police officer, like, she is just there for you. And I mean, I've had times where I didn't get a notice for court and they call my name, she'll stand up and like, hey, I'm covering for her. She's just, she's one of those attorneys that just hash your back.
[00:02:49] And so when she sees this, you know, plea going south.
[00:02:54] And we're just all confused. She wrote a note to the lawyer about, like, things that she could do to avoid jail time for her client in that court.
[00:03:02] And after court, you know, they chit chatted a bit and she kind of explained, you know, her case and why she thought it was okay. And then the. My attorney friend, you know, responded or something, but let us kind of know. And. But then the other attorney that we did not know came up to my attorney friend and said, by the way, I've been practicing law for 20 years.
[00:03:26] Which my attorney friend responded to me too.
[00:03:30] And it was just like, okay, You've been practicing 20 years, but not in that courtroom, you know, and all my attorney friend did was try to give advice on how to avoid jail time for her client. You know, just maybe she didn't know of this other option that this court does pretty regularly to avoid jail time.
[00:03:53] And so it got me thinking, are we ever done learning?
[00:03:58] We aren't. I'm not going to say I don't think we are. I'm going to say I know we are not done learning. We can always learn and take advice from other attorneys and to make us better at our craft.
[00:04:11] Practicing law is a craft, and I believe you have to, you know, nurture a craft and continue to grow that craft.
[00:04:23] So I don't think we're done learning. And a good example is I got hired last minute on emotion to do something. I know what I'm doing. I know the laws and stuff like that. But I reached out on a listserv I am to get input from other attorneys because it's not something I have done a lot of.
[00:04:41] And so I got so much great feedback. And one of the attorneys that's done a lot of these types of motions even called me and spoke with me for half an hour and helped me with the wording of my motion and saying that in his experience, if I worded it this way, it would be a lower chance it was granted. But if I change the wording into something else, he thinks the argument is stronger. So. So just things that he has noticed from the bench to help me make my motion better and stronger. And it was, you know, so helpful, so informative. And I was able to strengthen my motion by taking those phone calls, by getting that input and reaching out to help.
[00:05:25] And I think that's something that every attorney should do. And I mentioned recently, cause I. I had an attorney call me about a question about a probation violation.
[00:05:40] And I gave my input, but I said, but you know, my. Our other friend, and I'll just say it. Nate Brady. I said, nate knows way more about probation violations than I do.
[00:05:50] And I've spoken about this issue to him myself about probation violations. I will call him. And he goes, you know, he's like, yeah, I didn't want to bug him, but if he does more, I said, yeah, he'll always take a call. Like, just like me, I'm here to help with anything.
[00:06:05] But at the same time, I have had Nate reach out to me.
[00:06:12] He had a client one time that was autistic. He knew that. I have been doing a lot of legal research on the issues and in criminal court with people with disabilities because of my son.
[00:06:26] And so I have, like, a folder in my email with a lot of information, PDF files, an attorney that's an example, expert in it in Texas. I had his contact information.
[00:06:38] I had D3's contact information, which is an organization decriminalizing disabilities and the United States. I had information on what other states were doing. And so I sent him everything. I was like, I'll send you everything I got. Whatever you can do to help your client. Here it is. And so I just love that. I love that about my circle and the. The attorneys I associate with and talk to, we all bring something different to the table, right? I do a lot of DUIs. I've challenged the Breathalyzer. I've done those things. So I may have more knowledge in that than some of the other attorneys that haven't had to challenge that like I have.
[00:07:18] And so I welcome calls to assist in that. But also when I'm called and I know there's an attorney that knows more than me on a topic, I send them that. And I think collectively, I think when you have an attorney that's willing to reach out to others to make your case better, to make your case stronger, you've got a good lawyer.
[00:07:36] I don't think you have a good lawyer. When they think they know it all, when they think they can do it all by themselves and they don't need any help or advice, I don't think that's a good lawyer.
[00:07:47] When people. I had someone ask me recently, would you hire your firm if you were a client? I said, hell, yes.
[00:07:55] Hell, yes, Absolutely. Just like that. I said, Hell, 100%. And I said, because I know what my firm brings to the table.
[00:08:02] We all bring something different to the table when we're trying cases, when we're fighting cases.
[00:08:09] And I know what that is like. I know that. Caroline, my Associate is an excellent legal writer.
[00:08:17] If I need a memorandum done, a memo or a motion or something like that, I. She is just really good at that. She is good at legal research. She is good at writing. Those are things that are her strong suit.
[00:08:32] I also know at the same time there are certain cases in her office that make her uncomfortable to put a lot of work in. And I respect that. And I try to take on those things because that's not her strong suit. If that's not something that she's open to doing. Like, I try to not put those things on her and limit it because she doesn't want that to be her strong suit. And I respect that. So. But I know what she brings to the table in her strengths. And then I also know my law partner can get sassier than I get.
[00:09:04] We're kind of like somebody said, good cop, bad cop.
[00:09:07] I think we bring that to the table when we are trying a case together.
[00:09:13] And it works really well. It helps us balance which witnesses that we should cross examine.
[00:09:19] If we know that a witness is going to need someone, something a little bit spicier, we go with Laura. If we know we need to kill him with kindness and get a jury to like, you know, like me and just look at me, what I'm saying, like we put me in.
[00:09:36] So, yeah, so I know what our firm brings to the table. And I think two heads are better than one. I think three heads are better than one.
[00:09:42] And I think a great example of this is the Rick Chow case, you know, that was tried here in Columbia. And I know that there's a lot of animosity over the verdict. But what I look is at the defense table, those are three great, brilliant attorneys. And they all brought something different to that trial and something different to the table. And it worked.
[00:10:06] Sean Kent is known for his closing arguments.
[00:10:09] He did a great closing arguments.
[00:10:11] I criticized some of his.
[00:10:14] I criticized some of his lack of objections, but that was all three. None of them stood up for some of the objections. So, you know, we're not all perfect, but maybe they had a trial strategy for that. I don't know. But I just believe that they did so good working together as a team.
[00:10:34] And you saw that live on tv and they were constantly learning. I bet if you talk to Sean, Jack and Joe, they all learned something from the other attorney when they were trial prepping that case because everybody brought something different to the table. And so.
[00:10:50] So, yeah, so I just. That was an experience I had yesterday. And I thought, I think it's something Important to know. And I think you can apply that. No matter what job that you're in, no matter what job you're in, if you're open, open and receptive to constructive criticism, it will make you better at your craft and what you do.
[00:11:10] Another example is I had a preliminary hearing last week.
[00:11:15] At a preliminary hearing, the arresting officer doesn't have to testify.
[00:11:20] The lead investigator can testify on their behalf. So a lot of it is hearsay that is allowed in preliminary hearings.
[00:11:28] But it's frustrating, right? Because if I have an issue like I don't believe there's probable cause for a search or a stop, they're giving me hearsay and I can't challenge it, right? So. So I caught the affiant who testified lead investigator conflicting the arresting officer's body cam video and some of the statements, which made me question probable cause of the search and the traffic violation.
[00:11:54] And so he got real stumped, confused.
[00:11:57] And so when we were leaving, I was talking, I was like, you didn't watch the body cam, did you? He goes, no, I was just going off his report. And I said, well, you need to tell your officers that if you're the lead investigator, they need to put details in their report. If somebody failed to maintain lane, they need to have details on what that failure was like. Did they cross the yellow line, the. The white line, how many times did they observe it, where that was? They need to give you a summary because when it is a drug case and it is a traffic stop, you need to be able to testify to that reasonable suspicion. So if you're not going to go back and watch the potty cameras, you need to tell your officers and train them so you're not caught perjuring yourself on the stand by saying one thing that's in the report. When the body cam say something different, you need to, you know. And he goes, I appreciate that. Thank you so much. He goes, I'll take the constructive criticism. And I said, hey, I've had attorneys come and watch my closing arguments and tell me what I need to work on. And I appreciate that feedback because it's made me a better lawyer.
[00:12:58] And there's certain things like. Like the one thing that I get constructive criticized on the most, my closing arguments, is I walk around too much. And so it kind of loses.
[00:13:15] Sorry about that. My phone ring, it kind of loses. It makes the jury lose their focus on what I'm saying when I'm moving around too much. But I'm glad to know that because I did something different in my Last trial. And my law partner said it was so much more effective when I, I did that.
[00:13:33] I did. I don't like using notes, but I did have, like, I jotted like, a list of things I wanted to go over with them, and I just put it to the side on a podium. So I didn't really rely on it, but I would make a point when I went over there to it to incorporate it, and it worked really well. So she's like, maybe you need to do that. Because when you did that, it was so much more effective than when you just walk around, like, giving your statement. So always learning. Be open to other people's advice.
[00:14:02] Don't take it personally when somebody's telling you something that you can do better. It's not personal. And honestly, if I take the time to say that, hey, I think you can do this differently or better, stuff like that, I'm just trying to help. I just want to make everybody the best they can be. And it comes from such a good place. And just like yesterday, my attorney friend, all of that came from such a good place. She just didn't want to see this girl go to jail, and she was trying to help an attorney avoid that.
[00:14:29] So, yeah. So that is my take this week, and I hope you all can take that into your own jobs, help each other out. Like I said, two heads is better than one.
[00:14:43] We may not always like group projects back in the day, but I think there's a difference in a group project and taking advice and gathering information from groups. If we sit down with others, we can always learn more and it'll get us more respect and respect for other people in our field and craft.
[00:15:01] So.
[00:15:02] So, yeah, so that is my topic for the day.
[00:15:07] Thanks for joining us. Hopefully we'll be back next week because I know we've got some good topics ahead that we've talked about.
[00:15:14] If you're not from or Richland county, our sheriff land lot is like, on a crusade to charge parents when a child is arrested.
[00:15:23] So I want to talk about that with Lauren and kind of get her take on that.
[00:15:28] Another topic is we had one of our listeners talk about, talk to us about somebody that lived here and then became like a drug mule for the cartel. And so it's very interesting story we hope to share with y'. All. So we got some good topics coming up. Stay tuned and we will see you next week. Thanks. Bye.
