Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: And I'm Lauren, and welcome to another
[00:00:09] Speaker A: episode of the Llama's podcast.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: And today we are back together after a while. It has been kind of a crazy summer and busy, and I think things are getting more back to regular routine for everybody now as we're more into. My kids haven't went back to school yet. They don't go back till next week, but we're getting more in a routine.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: So what grades are your kids going into?
[00:00:35] Speaker B: First and K4.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: Okay, so this is my question.
Were you super emotional when Kylie started 5K?
[00:00:47] Speaker B: No, I.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: My. I've been terrible, Lauren. So My youngest started 5k last week, and I have cracked, cried multiple days, Multiple, multiple days. I just cannot get it together. And then, like, yesterday and today, it's like, I don't want to go to school. And I honestly want to reply, I don't want you to go either, but I can't because I have to be the bigger person.
And so I have to say, oh, great day.
And meanwhile, my heart is just breaking. Like, I didn't. They. So my kids went to school together for a couple years and their early years in preschool. Like, Mac was just a year old.
Luke would have been four and.
But the school was like 30 minutes away, so I'd have to get ready, get them ready. We all left, you know, and so. And then when they went to different schools, we put Luke in public school. I would go drop Luke off with Mac, and then I'd come home and get ready. And then me and Mac, I drop him off and go to work. This is the first time in so long, I think since ever. I drop both of them off and then I go get ready by myself. And I'm lonely.
I don't know what to do. Like, I. I used to look forward to this. Like, I remember Lori when I rented from her, I was like, how does it feel just to get ready without any interruptions and just sit there? And she's like, you're gonna regret. You're gonna miss it. Is that. That's what she said? And I can say that she was correct, because I don't know what to do with myself. I come home and the house is empty, and I have, like an hour to get ready for work. And I'm like, I don't know what to do by myself.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Well, that is not the case for me, I guess. Like, I get up, I get ready, I drop them off at school about 7:45, then I just come to work. It gives me, like, no, I get. I mean, it doesn't take me long to get ready. I don't, like, overly style myself for work. I have on a pink shirt from Kohl's and some black pants and some makeup. Like, I don't really do a lot. It takes me all of, like, 20 minutes to get ready. So I don't.
I don't dress up that, like, I don't. I just don't. It's not that I don't care. I do. I want to look nice, but, like, I put on some foundation, some blush, some eyeliner and lipstick, and that's about.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Takes me a little longer, especially my hair. But I have very textured hair and it's very thick and stuff. So, you know, my hair alone usually takes about at least minimum, 10 minutes, minimum. And I will say a lot of times when. As long as I, like, blow dry it, when I wash it, it won't take me as long to do my hair, but I will have to at least run a straightener through it or a curling iron, depending.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: Well, I wear my hair up half the time and it doesn't look the best, but, like, it's hot almost every day.
Well, see, like, even when I have court, my hair typically is gonna go up.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: Because it is. So, like today, I think it's gonna be 103 degrees. So, like, if I walk outside, my hair looks awful. So it just. I mean, it is what it is, and I've just accepted that.
And I don't think any of the judges here have looked at me and been like, oh, my gosh, your hair looks awful.
I don't think they care. I just. I don't, like, it's just not a big deal for me.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: Well, I get ready. And second, I. I already have to get them up at 6.
We're not morning people either. So I have to get them up at 6:30. And so I'm not getting up at 5:30 to get ready beforehand.
[00:04:26] Speaker B: I will say the nice thing about what I do is our phones at the office don't turn on till nine. And like, it's really, for me getting here early and having time with no phones. And like, maybe sometimes Jill's here, it get. I can get way more, like, work done in that hour than I can sometimes all day. So it's just right for me. It's helpful.
[00:04:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
So anyways, that's where I'm at, I think. I. So my friend Brittany, she's kind of in the same emotional boat that I am. Apparent Lauren just has no emotions. Just kicking.
Yes.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: I'M just thankful like the same school they are going to get. We're private school people. They're going to go the same school till the day they graduate. I never thought I would be a private school mom but here I am.
And I love the teachers, I love the staff. I feel like they're well taken care of and my kids like school so like they are ready to go back. So I think that helps too. But I will say Angie, my ad, my front desk administration. Her granddaughter started kindergarten for the first time and her daughter has been a complete wreck. Like crying, shaking, waking up with nightmares.
So I think it's just depends. I mean I don't think there's a right or wrong way.
[00:05:55] Speaker A: I think that he's my baby.
That's hard. And it is a new school. So on top of like that layered and then so the, the I have you know, my, my adopted babies and, and Reed is one and he's the only one I was actually living in Union for when he started 5K. And so I just keep getting memories back of his starting 5k and he moves into USC on Saturday and I'm like God, this, these memory. I mean it feels like it was just the other year and now he's moving into college. So I guess the realization of how fast it goes and Brittany has struggled because you know her go to people with life changes has always been her mother in law and her aunt and both of them passed this year. And once she said that I was like oh my. I think another layer is I'm not on great terms with my mom or my sister right now. And it'll be fine. Like we. Every family goes through tiffs especially when you're a family of all girls. So I know that it'll, it'll be fine. But it's just, it's hard right now to not be on good terms with such a big life event because I don't have anybody. Like I don't. I have my mother in law and I'm so glad I've had her because I've talked to her a lot about this week. But it's hard not to have like my mom experience this with me.
But anyways, so that was my question because I have cried the whole way home on Monday.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: I just might be different when it's Maddie too because Kylie's my oldest and she's going into first grade. Maddie's in 4K so maybe different because Maddie's my baby. Like that's it. We're not having any more kids. A Psychic told me we were gonna have a third, but I think she just was probably getting confused with my dogs because I treat them as babies. So maybe that was it. But like, we're done. Maddie's my baby. So I may be more emotional with Maddie than I am with Kylie because it'll be like my final kindergarten, I guess.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: Right.
So anyway, switching two of. Speaking of children, a very tragic story going on in. It's pretty nationwide. I mean it's, it's trending on Tick Tock, Instagram, Facebook. I don't think you can go on any social media site right now and not see something on the Lindsay Clancy trial.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: Which is honestly why I started watching it. Because I got tired of seeing all these like theories online. And I'm like, I'm gonna go watch the trial. I'm gonna see what true evidence is presented.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: So you're gonna get two different to our listeners perspectives because I have not. I am only seeing what's on social media. I've not watched any of the trial. My paral has.
She's been very invested in it. I told her I was going to get a kaler so I can know where she's at as far as guilty and not guilty.
So just summarize if you are living under a rock.
Lindsay Clancy was charged with murdering her three young children, I believe by strangling them.
And she is on trial for their murder right now. From my understanding, the defense's theory is that she has she suffered from postpartum psychosis.
And so that is their defense.
It seems like a not guilty by reasonable insanity is kind of their what they're going for. So what have you, I guess from the trial. Let's start with like, what have you noticed from things you see on social media that aren't going on in the trial, like, they don't match. Do you, can you think of anything?
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Or it's kind of the whole like, I feel like, okay, for one, I'm just going to say I think we as a society don't like to think a woman will murder her children. Like, I think that's just it. We want to find like, because there's so many conspiracy theories, the husband did it and stuff. And I think some of it is we just want to find that a woman won't do that. But as we saw, Andrea Yates did, Susan Smith did, like there are plenty of women that murder their children. So I think some of it is just this. We don't want to think that. And it's rare. I mean, women really are rarely killed killers as much as men. I mean, as Lacey's pointed out, her favorite serial killer is a woman, and she's one of the only.
And I think it's just hard for us. So I guess, though, like, a lot
[00:10:24] Speaker A: of them plan murders in advance, though, either, like, we don't see a lot of women serial killers, like, where they're, like, lurking in the dark, like Coburger, the Idaho murders. Like, we could think of.
Think we. But. But women, you don't really see that
[00:10:44] Speaker B: women are more crimes of passion. Like, we get inflamed and we react.
And I do think women in general, we have a different thought process. I mean, our hormones play a lot more role than what I think they do in men because we do have weight. Not that men's hormones don't fluctuate. They obviously do. Like, you have different levels.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: But.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: But women, we fluctuate so much in a month. And especially, like, as our bodies go through major changes, like pregnancy and, like, menopause, we just have a lot of changes in our body.
But I think a lot of what we've been pulling from is people just okay. So I think the biggest thing that has got on my nerves is the theory the husband did it.
[00:11:31] Speaker A: I like it, though, because he's the only one with motive to do it. Or if he just didn't care about her mental state and didn't care what happened, because then he could just move on with life with the new woman he had.
[00:11:44] Speaker B: But he wasn't having an affair.
At no point has any phone records have been went through. This is the thing. The Internet salutes are coming up with this stuff that none of it was actually presented. So you mean to tell me, if you were her defense attorney, you wouldn't have argued he was h. But honestly, if he was having an affair, it gave her more motive to do it, if you want to know my honest truth. Because then it should be like, screw him, I'm gonna take you and the kids out, like, kind of thing. No, none of it. No record show he was ever having an affair.
Honestly, was he a crappy husband? Maybe, maybe not. So that's the thing. We don't know, because I don't. I really don't think she'll take the stand in any of this. And if you're claiming an insanity plea, I really don't think she needs to take the stand. But. But realistically, there's been no evidence shown that he was having an affair, which is what the Internet has went wild with. He actually did not get married to this woman until this year. If you actually look at the real records, they were saying like within six
[00:12:44] Speaker A: months of the kids, he moved.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: No, he moved from the home he lived in to New York where his company was based on. He was working remote to be at home with her and the children.
And once all this happened, he moved. Because I'm not going to say in a house my kids were murdered in either.
So like a lot of this stuff they're coming up with, there's no foundation for it. And I'm just saying, I mean, I think her criminal defense attorney is very smart. He comes off as a jerk a lot, which I don't like, but some people like it like that just depends on what you like as an attorney.
I think you can get more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. But there was like that whole thing Sheldon said on the Big Bang Theory, you get more with poop. So, you know, kind of that whole theory like that is just.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: His trial presence. That has nothing to do. As far as an intelligent attorney, he is very smart. I think he is. So if there was any thought that the husband did it, this criminal defense attorney would have went after that in motions prior to this hearing. So I think that whole theory is like discrediting her attorney's theory, which he's gone the whole time. He has never. She admitted to doing it. They never tried to get that thrown out. And if he was, and I think this attorney is smart, if he was not a smart attorney, he would have done a lot more than what's happening now. He wouldn't be going for the insanity defense if he truly thought she didn't do it.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: So that's like kind of my thought from the legal's perspective. And like there's people are going, well, his DNA was on the bands and hers wasn't. That's not what's been admitted into evidence.
Every person in that house's DNA was on those bands.
It was a convoluted mess of DNA on the bands and he any of this.
[00:14:39] Speaker A: And I think that's important to distinguish.
Watching the trial versus social media. I'm really glad we did this episode just because, like I said, I've only really gotten exposure to social media. So it's interesting to hear what everybody's
[00:14:54] Speaker B: DNA was on the band that has been completely like, oh, her DNA, her DNA was. It's just when there's so much like, if 20 people touch this pen, I'm holding. If you're listening, I'm holding A pen, rubbing it. I don't know how many of my clients have touched this pen.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: I don't know how many people in my office have touched this pin. This pen is going to have a ton of DNA on it, and it's going to be hard to pinpoint someone's DNA if a billion people have touched it. So, like, I think some of it is they're trying to make science different than what it is. So that's kind of why I just don't. I don't like it. And another thing. This is one thing you've talked about before, Lacy, is how people react to crimes.
Does it mean they don't. He got on the stand and people are like, well, he wasn't crying.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: We don't know what all meds this man is on that he could have knocked himself out to feel no emotion.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:47] Speaker B: There's that also.
This happened years ago, and the only way he might can get through it is to show no emotion. He may go home and ball his eyes out.
So. And he's also testifying for the defense. He is not the state's witness. He actually was called as a hostile witness.
I think that's something people don't understand, too. Like, you can call a witness that is not on your side. It's a hostile witness. And when you do that, you have more leeway in how you question them because it's like you're doing cross from the start.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: Right.
But no, he was a support. He is supportive of her, correct?
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Yes. He thinks.
[00:16:28] Speaker A: He thinks she was having in.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: He thinks she had a mental break. Now, granted, he's got a civil lawsuit going, which I think plays into this, too.
So I think just from the legal side of things, people are running away with stuff that's not true. And they are like you just watching TikTok videos, not watching the trial to see actually what's being presented as evidence.
Yeah.
And I think that's kind of like what's really got on my nerves with this is like, I don't know, was this man a good husband? I don't know. Like, from what I'm seeing, maybe not. Maybe he wasn't a good husband and dad.
But we are on the Internet saying, because this man didn't react how you wanted him to react because he said she killed the effing kids. People have went off about that, okay. He was in a state of panic because he didn't react the exact way you wanted him to, and because he may not have been husband of the year. You're going on and saying he killed these children. And I guess in my opinion, he doesn't deserve that because I think if there was actual truth that he did that and people are going, oh, well, if you look at this CVS picture, it says he had on these shoes. And this one doesn't say this when he went to go pick up the food. Okay, are y' all saying her defense attorney was that stupid? He couldn't recognize that in the pictures?
Like, are you saying this defense attorney who has represented many high profile cases, you know, way more than him.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: That's kind of where I feel like. Right. I don't like her defense attorney's vibe, I can tell you that. But I think he is smart and I think any good defense attorney would have found this stuff. Not from your sleuths on the Internet. I mean, you're pretty much saying he's an idiot.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: Yeah. So a couple things I will say from the social media side that I think are. Are good things and positive things, because we've definitely pointed out a lot of the negatives.
Is one, like, you typically don't see a lot of people supporting defense attorneys in cases, but I, I've seen a lot of things. Positive comments about them. And so to go from like the Rick Chow case, you know, and seeing how much like Shan Kent went through and the hate he received, I mean, he was getting death threats for him and his wife and being a defense attorney in that case, which clearly completely different facts and stuff. But I do believe there is just more positivity for the defense attorney, which I think goes to what you were saying, Lauren, and how intelligent he is.
And as a defense attorney, like, we. I just don't see that that's very rare in a public trial to see people give, I guess, positive points to the defense attorney. It's always like, how can you do that? How can you represent that in that case? And you're just not seeing that here.
And a lot of people are annoyed with the prosecutors. The hair bows.
[00:19:29] Speaker B: I will say I don't like the hair bows. I. I'm a person that I put my children in bows because they are children.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: I think some people, like my paralegal said there are some people that could pull it off. She said, like, I think you could pull off a bow in the appropriate matter. Not every matter, but the. There may be something like, I've worn fun socks on down syndrome day.
But again, even though I was going to General Sessions court and I had my fun socks for down syndrome day, it was like a very easy time served plea, even though it was on national tv.
Right. And the thing is, is if. But if I were in the middle of a murder trial, I might have worn my fun socks, but I probably would have worn pants. Because I have to balance being a defense attorney with being an advocate for my son on down syndrome day. Right. And I just think there's time and place and this just is very inappropriate with the hair bows. I don't think they pull it off.
[00:20:24] Speaker B: I hate saying that, honestly, because right now I feel like I'm doing how people did Marcia Clark in the O.J. trial and judged her on her looks. And I hate that the hair bows bother me, but they do.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And unfortunately, we both know we don't know what a jury is going to do. Some jurors follow the law to a T. I think that's what we saw in the Rick Chow case. So some jurors go off of emotion, some jurors go off of how they feel about people. Well, I like the defendant. So even though, like, by law they're guilty, I like them. I'm going to cut them or they're going to base it off. The attorneys, I literally had a jury deliberate for just as long as the trial. And afterwards they did find my client guilty. But they said, yeah, we just really struggle because we really didn't like that prosecutor. But we liked you wasn't enough at the end of the day. But some trials it is. Some trials, you know, hey, I like the attorney better than the prosecutor. So as much as we hate to talk about it, especially with women, we don't know who's is sitting in that jury box and what they're going to base it on.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: And I will say I think the prosecution is not doing well on this case. I don't think they're doing as bad as like in Murdoch. The prosecution sucked. I'm just. Is what it is.
I. I feel like it's kind of like the O.J. simpson level. Like they're a little in over their heads. And I hate saying this because they are women. Like, I do hate it, but I also feel like I want to be fair because, you know, just being a woman doesn't mean. No, I don't feel like they've done a great job presenting their case.
They haven't. I feel like. And this is the thing, I don't.
I am an attorney. I don't play into courtroom dramatics. I hate it. Like, that is not for me. I do a lot of probate cases, which is more, we don't have a jury. We go in front of a judge. We deal more on law. And I feel like those are not. Like, they're emotional, don't get me wrong. Because families are emotional. It's not that it's not an emotional case, but it's not dramatics. But I get it with the jury. Like, that is why I could never do, like, personal injury. I'm not one of those theatrical people. Like, that is just not me.
But in jury cases, it does matter if they like you or not. And, like, from the social media aspect, a lot of people are liking the defense attorney, which is why I don't like what they're doing to him. Because it's like you're saying, oh, he's such a good attorney, but he's an idiot. He didn't see this, like, you know, kind of, like, type stuff. And I will say, the other big thing that I wanted that has really bothered me with this case is how they have went against the women who are doctors and are saying they failed her.
Okay? So one thing that has really got on my nerves. So when I watch the trial, there's a chat to the side of it. I don't know. I'm watching it on YouTube.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: It's like AP Press or whatever is
[00:23:13] Speaker B: putting it on YouTube. Well, people can chat. I don't chat because it would just anger me to start chatting with people. But I do read it occasionally, and people are like, she didn't order the genetics testing. She failed them. Okay, you know what? Go after the insurance company, because insurance companies do not pay for genetic testing. So if you don't order it and a person can't pay for it, the doctor can't do it. So that's kind of one of these things that I feel like, over. Like, yes, I feel like Dr. Tufts, who was one of her many doctors, let's put out there many, made some mistakes. Dr. Tufts, though we're going after her individually, and it's not.
She was a doctor at a hospital.
The hospital assigned her. They're like, she knew she was over her head. The doctor assigned. The hospital assigned her this patient. What is she supposed to do? She's an employee of the hospital.
She's bound by what the hospital. And yeah, she got into her quicker because she was new. But let's not say she was new. She graduated years ago, and she had went through years of residency. So just because this is. She hadn't been long into practicing on her own does not mean she was. She's not. Doctors aren't like attorneys. We take the bar and they're like, go forth, practice, do whatever.
Doctors graduate and then have to go through years of training depending on what their thing is. So it's a little different in that situation. I don't feel like she was this, like, baby idiot.
I think she. It really bothered me how people on the Internet are going after her personally when she has an employee of a big.
Of a big system.
Insurance does a lot.
And the thing that I think people don't realize is mental health is so much different.
Say you have high blood pressure, okay? You go to the doctor, they find a medicine, and then, you know, you test your blood pressure every day. And the doctor can even. There's apps now where you can, like, have a cuff on and send your doctor the readings. You, you know if the medicine is working or not because there's data to back it up.
With mental health, she doesn't have that data. She has to rely on you as the patient.
It's not black and white. Like, if you're a diabetic, they can figure out what level of insulin they need to give you based on the sugar readings in your blood.
So mental health is just a completely different area.
And the way people have torn this woman apart on the Internet, did she make mistakes? She probably did.
But we are all human. And I think the hard part is you are all looking at it from hindsight. You're not seeing what she heard in that moment.
And, yeah, I think things may have possibly failed Lindsay, but it's not one person that did it. And that's kind of what's bothering me, I guess, like, because I'm looking at the civil law, There's a civil lawsuit going with all this too.
And I think we are opening a slippery slope. Everybody's like, this is going to change mental health. It's going to make it better.
I'm worried it's going to do the opposite because all these doctors are seeing how this woman was berated. Did she note properly? No, she made some mistakes in her charting. But every doctor and every nurse out there has been so overworked, they have probably made mistakes in their charting. Because when you're supposed to see X number of patients a day, because the system is massive, making you.
You are exhausted and you are overworked. And I worry right now that all these doctors are thinking, I don't want to treat women or I don't want to treat postpartum women, because this is what I'm up against and I am Too scared. Now that is what I am worried is getting to happen to the system, not things are going to get better because insurance isn't getting better. That's going to take years of lobbyists and change and they're big companies.
What I'm worried is your good doctors are going to be scared right now.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: That's a good point.
I will say with that though. One of my other positives on social media and talking about this case is I do think about postpartum psychosis being talked about more, understanding more and postpartum depression. And yes, I agree 100% there is a system failure when it comes to mothers. And I mean we even see that. Like perfect example, we don't get paid maternity leave. Mitch McConnell is now, you know, on six plus weeks of paid leave for his Medicaid, you know, medical. And I don't care how you feel about Mitch McConnell, at the end of the day, anybody in the Senate, representatives, whoever, they should not get paid medical leave that us women don't get when we have a baby. To me, and it's not even women,
[00:28:02] Speaker B: people don't get medical. You save up your sick days.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: And if you don't have it, you don't.
No, you don't get paid.
[00:28:10] Speaker A: Again, agree that this is a system failure with women. But at the same time I just, this is a good conversation to be having to hopefully progress, hopefully get lobbyists to change the system in the future because we are still so far behind in that. And so the, in the. And the last thing I think is good about social media is I've seen men talking about postpartum psychosis and men posting about, you know, things that they've observed about postpartum and things that they've learned. I've seen men post about the attorney and you know, finding interest in this case. And I think that's a good thing too. I think a lot of men don't understand what we as women go through with our hormones and postpartum and having babies and stuff.
You know, my husband hasn't cried like I have over 5k in this though.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: She has never actually been diagnosed with postpartum psychosis. That is just her defense.
[00:29:07] Speaker A: Oh, okay, that's interesting. But I do great thing that there are men watching this trial and consuming this information from the state's witnesses and you know, the defense attorney cross examination material. But there's some education here, no matter what side you fall on as to whether she had it, didn't have it, guilty, not guilty. And there's good Education about system failures, about what more can be done about signs and symptoms. And I think it's a great thing that people are consuming that information and educating themselves on it.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: I will say though I see a lot of the opposite. When you actually watch the trial, I see all the social media as hate mongering, fear mongering, conspiracy theorists.
[00:29:54] Speaker A: And these are real, I think have.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: These are real children that were murdered. I mean and at the end of the day I think that's part of it too is she actually never was diagnosed. So these I guess yes they're called by the state but these were her practicing physicians.
And also what also gets on my nerves is people get mad. Well she says she's nervous. Would you not be nervous like that? There's a person on there right now and she said a lot people like she's saying, she's saying cuz she's nervous, she's a human. Stop. Like I need to expect people, these doctors never anticipated to be on this trial.
And I don't care how much you deal with this, it's nerve wracking. So I guess like I see so much people being so mean. It's really bothering me and I worry.
But also I see people just grasping at stuff that's not there in the evidence too. And I don't like that because no, she hasn't actually none of her treating physicians, which she had a bunch of. This wasn't one person. She had a ton of doctors. Whether she was doctor shopping or not, I don't know. But none of them actually diagnosed her with postpartum psychosis. It is part of her defense. So at this point we're waiting to see if the defense can bring in experts that will show that. But up at this point there has been no evidence that she truly had postpartum psychosis.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: Which considering we're still on the state's case because they have not rested. Correct.
With that's not shocking because they of course are not going to introduce evidence to help the defense.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: Well no, but these are. All of her treating physicians have testified.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Right. And then, and then the defense is arguing that they failed her by not diagnosing it. And we expect that that is going to come in the defense's case is that she was. And they missed it.
Yeah.
So not gonna ask personal opinions but based on what you've seen from the prosecutor, the defense, what are you seeing?
Mistrial not guilty by reasonable insanity. Guilty. If you had a gut pick today,
[00:32:00] Speaker B: this is the hard part because I have a personal opinion.
[00:32:04] Speaker A: Well you can give it if you want to, but I was just gonna say she's guilty.
[00:32:07] Speaker B: I don't think she had postpartum psychosis. I think she did have postpartum depression, but she never from the state side. Now here's the thing, the defense. I'm going to be open minded and they could change my mind. But she never once told anybody she had the thought of harming her children.
She never actually had a suicidal plan.
She never did any of the. And this is the thing also people are like, oh, this was another thing. The defense bothered me with this. It was, well, why didn't you go tell her husband?
That really bothers me as a woman, because if I'm going to get mental health, you need to go tell my husband. No, the reason we have these laws is so people can get treatment without being worried. And the laws on when you can commit somebody are very, very limited. So stop acting like she could have easily been committed because she couldn't, because she never had a plan. And maybe that needs an overhaul. And I think that's a hard part too is because where do we balance you as a person versus when you need to be committed? Because at one point you're going to take away an individual's rights.
And I think that's part of this too is you can't do as a doctor what the laws won't allow you to do.
And then she didn't meet the qualifications from what they were seeing to be committed. And I guess like that's where I have a lot of opinions because I think a lot of this is, this is hard because you're expecting lay people to understand very complex issues.
And in all of this, I will see what the defense says, what their experts say and how they bring that in. And I'm going to be open minded to listen to that.
But at this point, yeah, I think. But a lot of it's going to depend. This is what's not fair in our jury. It's emotion. It doesn't matter what. This is the hard part.
You can have the law 100% on your side and still lose because people are people and have emotion. And the reverse can be true. Yeah, you can be a terrible attorney and lose like a terrible attorney, but you're a good, charismatic people person and the jury love you. That's kind of the hard part with all of this is we have laws, but we're people. And so I think that's going to be. I also think this civil case makes me really nervous too because I Think that is opening a big gate for medical malpractice with mental health that is very different than any other area of the law. Because yes, like it's one thing if you get mad mal because I left a piece of galls inside of you.
I mean, that's straight up, you did something wrong. But this is so open ended, so.
And I also think the fact that they're going on at the same time is going to influence the way the doctors are going to testify because they're nervous because they have a med mal case and they're being witnesses in a case.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
So my thoughts. And again, Lauren has watched the trial. I have not. So just this. We have an opinion from the trial and opinion from social media. I would guess mistrial at this point. Again, our. So just we'll have to definitely do a follow up episode at the end of the trial to see if the defense changed our opinions and what that result is. But if I had a gut feeling that would be where I would stand right now. But I have said this and before to my friends who talk about it. Is it at the end of the day, even if she had postpartum psychosis, the thought of her just being set free and three babies being killed is an uneasy feeling. Right.
[00:35:48] Speaker B: Would that happen though, or would she be in a mental institution?
[00:35:52] Speaker A: So she should be placed in a mental institution, but if she's deemed safe for release, I think they can release her.
But you know, the thought of just her having more children in the future does, you know, that doesn't sit well with me either. I'm not saying she should be in prison, especially if she actually did have it right. If she had it. Prison doesn't sit right with me.
It's one of these cases where I'm just going to go back to Barbara Pratt. I think this is a good way to wrap up this episode. Barbara Pratt said, whenever you're in trial, at the end of the day, you don't pray to win, you just pray for justice. And so I think in this case, I think we can all agree at the end of the day, if she did in fact kill these children in a sane state of mind and wanted to, to do that, she should be convicted and spend the rest of her life in prison. If she was not in the right state of mind. We hope that justice happens accordingly and that she gets the help that she needs in the future. But you know, I think it's a good way to say we just, at the end of the day, we hope justice happens in this case, whatever that may be. And at this point, we don't know yet.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: And as the trial continues, we can continue to do updates and, you know, keep. And you give us your thoughts, like, if you have opinions, because a lot of you do. I've already texted Aaron. She is watching this trial. So, Aaron, and give us your opinion and thoughts. And we'd love to, like, hear from you all on it.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: Yeah, but, like, yeah, like Lauren said, we'll keep y' all posted and stay tuned next week.
