Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Hey, everybody, it's Lacey.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: And I'm Lauren, and welcome to another
[00:00:09] Speaker A: episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: And so today we're just kind of doing like, some pop culture roundup with some big things in the news.
I have a lot of opinions on Lindsay Clancy Sale, and if you look, that is what is in the background of my TV is Court tv, because they are live streaming this.
And so I have been having that off and on all day.
I guess, though, I'm gonna ask Lacy a question that she's probably gonna say no as the answer, but I have to know. So have you watched the show Interview with the Vampire?
No, I figured not. It's on amc. I'm gonna give a plug for it
[00:00:52] Speaker A: because I recently don't do vampires well.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: It's really good. It's like Heated Rivalries meets vampires. So it is, like, the best.
Anyways, it's on. No, it was on amc. It is now on Netflix, the first two seasons, and it's this love story between these two vampire men.
It.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: It.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: It's just perfection. And if vampire Lestat wants to come Take Me Away by Wesley. He's just beautiful. He'd have to be a vampire, of course. Not human. Like, not the real person. I need vampire.
But it's a really good show, and so if any of our listeners are watching to it, I've already tried to get multiple people to watch it so I can talk about it with somebody. It's based on the book by AN Rice.
And then, you know, there was a movie back in the 90s with Tom Hanks and Brad Pitt, Interview with the Vampire. But this is an updated one, and I think this one is probably the best adaptation of it because it just. It's bringing in. There's a lot of issues, like, Louis Dupont is black and Creole, and Lestat is this old white French vamp. He's not old. I mean, he is old, but he's not old kind of thing. And so there's, like, a lot of racial issues and a lot of issues with homosexuality. So it's, like, got a lot more attention. But it is an amazing show, and I just want to talk about it for a second because I need any of our listeners who have watched it to message me because I need to talk about it with somebody.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, before we get started on our topic, I have to vent about one, the Law and two a mama. So on point with this podcast, I'm going to start with the Law, and then I'll move to my. My mama venting real Quick and get your thoughts, Lauren.
So the law part, I am so just frustrated after this week I have been on. I've had emails to be in court for two different cases, two different counties on two different days. I am there, the prosecutor forgot and I was not on the docket.
Super annoying. But the reason I'm even more so annoyed with this is about a month ago my associate was on protected leave that is in the court system. The clerks are not supposed to put our cases on a docket when we're on leave. So, so she's protected that week, she's on leave. So of course she's not checking her email like she typically does. And then we had a case on the docket.
We are not there. Clearly our client's not there because we didn't tell him to be there. They issued a bench warrant for a client.
So first off, if there's a bench warrant issued, it should be, should be used because the client knew about court, the attorney's there ready to go forward, can't find the client. And it is a reason you, you issue a bench warrant to pick someone up and hold them in jail until their case is heard, when they are avoiding court and appearances, not mistakes. And the fact that the prosecutor was there, asked the judge for a bench warrant when we're not there either really pisses me off. Like why wouldn't you just call my office? Because anybody in my office would have been able to tell you this isn't on our calendar. We didn't get noticed. And if you sent it to attorney Caroline this week, she is on protected leave, which we get from the Supreme Court and not to bench warn our client because even if you put on the docket, notified us it's on us not being there. So I am really. And then this same courtroom, same courtroom on Monday, different prosecutor though I am there and my client is there and the prosecutor's not there because she, she forgot she emailed me that day and it's not on the docket and she's unavailable and not going to be there.
So you want to tell me this solicitor's office punishes defendants by putting them in jail for not showing up, but the prosecutors can just willy nilly make mistakes and it's fine. And again, mistakes were made. I'm not saying that.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: Yeah, like you're not mad that she didn't show up. You're mad that it's a double like that if she didn't show up because she made a human error, but they made you didn't show up instead of looking into it, they just automatically. I will say, when I clerked for a judge, if an attorney didn't show up, I. I would be back in the back office calling them to figure out what was going on. We didn't automatically assume anything until I talked. And sometimes it was human mistake, and sometimes it was, no, we never got that. Like, I clerked years ago, so there wasn't e file, and you were sending out more paper notices, and it'll be like, no, we never got that notice. And then, you know, look, oh, it came back. Stuff like that. So we never just would assume an attorney just didn't show up. And at that point, no, we didn't get on to the individual person.
If somebody didn't show up, the judge is going to fuss at the attorney if it was truly their mistake, not because that's the reason you hired an attorney.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: Exactly. And if it was, if we had gotten notice, it should have been on a calendar. But with Caroline being out, we maybe should have followed something like that. Let me take the blame for my human mistake. Don't put my. Try to put my client in jail. And the prosecutor on that case said, I, I'll live. I'll consider. Lift the bench warrant this time. But I'm not doing it again. What do you mean you're not doing it again? Because this wasn't on my client. This was not on my client. If it was on anybody, it was on us. But again, we were protected. So even if it was on us, it was just a common mistake.
The defendant. Yeah.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: And if it's. You got to order a protection, you do that for, like, that's how we have to get protection from courts. We go, there's different ways we can do it now. But if you have an order of protection, that pretty much means you are protected from any and all court appearances during that order.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And she's like, well, I didn't have a copy. Well, the clerk did. And. And it shouldn't, so. But anyway. So that's my annoyance with the law, is that rules are not followed for they're not the same for everybody.
And the defendant gets the worst of it, even for mistakes. But see, I'll say in Richland, it's not like that. I can't tell you how many times I've been in appearances in Richland County. And if our client's not there, we tell the judge, hey, you know, I've never had contact with this client. And they'll be like, okay, you can issue a bench Warrant or if we've had contact and say, your honor, I've had contact with this client. I've spoken to him. This. You know, can I check on it? Judge Taylor always says yes, I'll give you by Friday, Friday to 5 and appearances on Thursday.
So usually he gives, you know, 12 hours to figure it out. And we've had clients. Sometimes we found out they're in the hospital.
A loved one's in the hospital.
You know, things happen, and, you know, they won't issue a bench warrant. But Lexington, man is just.
Oh, it makes me so mad.
Really makes me mad. But anyways, that's my law pet peeve. My mom pet peeve.
So my adopted nephew was moving into college in Capstone on Saturday. Well, when I got there, he was moving into Capstone.
The elevator was out or the power was out, so the generator was working, but only one elevator was going. So I told him, let's take some of the light stuff up. He was on the eighth floor. So we took some stuff up, came back down. By that point, the power was back on.
So we're waiting for an elevator. Once we were almost at the elevator, there was so much stuff. I was like, I'll just take the stairs again and meet y' all up there, right?
Time. Going up eight flights of stairs. I was a little bit more winded.
So I get to, like, the fifth floor, and there's a man, like, he's got the door open. He goes, I said, no, I got three more flights. I'm almost there. He goes, you got this today, Mom.
Mom, Mom.
My kids are five and eight.
[00:08:46] Speaker B: Well, to be fair. To be fair, one of our.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: I got called mom on a college campus. Lauren, there is no being fair. I almost got Botox that day. No.
[00:08:56] Speaker B: Well, you know, a girl. You know, a girl who went to high school with Leedra, her daughter is going to USC honors college this year. So, I mean, we. We could have had a child at 20 and they be in college part two.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: It's like I literally am old enough to be his mom. And even if I had been his mom, I wouldn't have even been a teenage mom. No, I would have been 20.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: 20. 21. Yeah.
I mean, like, it'd still be a
[00:09:25] Speaker A: young birthday, and Max birthday is a day apart.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that would have hurt, though. I get it. It would have made me feel bad, too.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: I was in my crop top and micro jeans, a longer crop crop top. My belly wasn't showing. But, you know, I thought I was just blending with the college kids.
That Was a rude awakening, so at
[00:09:48] Speaker B: least it was nice to view.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: How is that nice?
[00:09:54] Speaker B: You got it.
Keep climbing those steps.
No, I would have been hurt, too. I would have been calling the doctor. Excuse me. Can I get a facelift right now?
[00:10:06] Speaker A: I did contemplate.
I think I'm gonna try micro needling. For sure.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: I heard those.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: Don't mind aging to an extent, right? Like, I don't know. It was. I've never minded aging. I really hadn't. I don't really mind what my face looks like or my body, but I don't. But there I do. It's just. I can't accept being called mom.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: It's tough.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: I'm. I'm still processing, if I'm being honest. That's.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: It's hard to be fair. We are old moms, though, huh? We are older moms. Like, I mean, we didn't have kids till we were in our 30s, pretty much.
I will say I don't mind aging sometimes, but, I mean, obviously I color my hair because I have gray hair.
I want to get this LPL facial. It's like, the laser stuff, and it's supposed to, like, tighten and help with fine lines. But overall, I'm not super wrinkled or anything yet, but I feel like I'm
[00:11:06] Speaker A: 90, so, I mean, I agree with Caroline. My body hurts more with aging, that
[00:11:13] Speaker B: I don't like that part.
I mean, I've always been an old woman on the inside, so.
[00:11:19] Speaker A: You have, but that's my pet peeve stories with the law and being the mom.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: I thought you were gonna fuss about, like, momo or your mama. Not, hey, I got called a college mom.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: It was worse.
Yeah.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: Well, I guess for me, switch gears. Talking about mothers is Lindsay Clancy's deal. And I've been still watching it.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: It is.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: I actually watch it. Like, I can't watch every minute of it, obviously, because I do have a job, but I, like, will have it on in the background and that type stuff. And I did want to, like, talk about one thing that a lot don't understand just from the legal standpoint of it, and that is expert witnesses versus the state's witnesses.
So, like, in this whole thing, the state did call Doctors. They called Dr. Tuffs, they called some nurse practitioners.
But in calling those, they were treating physicians, they were not called as experts. They were called as the treating physician. So they were there to give their firsthand experience of it.
So I don't think a lot of people realize the difference. Like, I guess because they are doctors, you're going to think they're an expert. But there is a very big difference in the court world from being the treating physician and being an expert.
And I think that's something because the judge gave this whole spill on what is an expert? Like you have the right to decide if you want to listen to their opinion or not. It's their credibility. You weigh that. And a lot of people were like, well, why?
Why did he give that spill for that and not for the prosecution's witness? And the difference is because when you call an expert, they are not the treating physician. They have came in and they have read the medical records and they make an opinion based on that and you are paying them a fee for your expert.
And this happens not just in criminals, civil cases like your med mal. Like if you file a med mal case, you are going to have, you know, a doctor come in and say this person didn't meet the standard of care and that's their expert and they paid them to do so. So I just want to take a minute to explain the experts the defense are calling now. There is one that is her treating physician. Like it is a psychiatrist who has seen her went to the hospital. They're not qualifying him as an expert.
He is a treating physician. But when somebody comes in as an expert, they have to lay the foundation with the judge. And the judge has to accept that this person is an expert and has the right to testify on it. So that's one of those things that I've seen all over the Internet. Oh, the judge did this? No, the judge followed what they're supposed to do. Because if it is an expert, they are not somebody with firsthand knowledge of it. They're going back. And you have experts in plenty of things. Medical scenes, crime scenes like car wrecks, all that stuff have different experts. It's just the judge has to tell you about them and they have to be qualified to be one.
So I think some people, I think a lot of people have never really watched a trial until this one. And I think you're seeing how much people don't really. And then they're like, they say a lot of things outside of the jury.
I see that comment. That's normal in trials because the jury, like the judge has to make decisions on what the jury can hear sometimes because we have rules that are like, is this more prejudicial than probative? Like, and so the judge sometimes has to hear that evidence to make the decision before we're going to take that to a jury. So that's the Thing? Yes. A lot of stuff happens outside the presence of the jury, and that's not uncommon. That is pretty common. Like, for instance, once the Commonwealth rested, there were motions made. The jury's not there for motions because they don't decide those motions, the motions. So what happened was Lindsay's attorney made a motion because right now she is charged with first degree premeditated murder. He made the motion that the state did not meet their burden to state it was premeditated and they needed to knock it down to second degree non premeditated murder.
But that's not something the jury's supposed to hear, because this is like more of a legal argument than the facts. The jury is the decider of facts, where the judge is going to lay down the law. And I think the biggest thing that I've seen from other attorneys that I think Lacey could probably agree on is one of the biggest things they're going to hear is at the end, the jury's going to get instructions. And those jury instructions is probably one of the biggest things they are going to hear, because that is how the judge is going to lay down, how you interpret the facts to the law.
And that's not what the attorney. The attorneys are going to get up and do their closing arguments and all that. But before the jury goes back to deliberations, the judge is going to tell them, this is the law. You have to apply the facts to this law. And what the judge gives in those closing instructions is probably going to be the biggest thing of the trial that determines, I think, honestly, how he words that and what charges and things he brings are going to be one of the biggest things to say if she really was insane or not.
[00:16:58] Speaker A: Sean Kent has said something similar on his Instagram. He's a local defense attorney.
Going back to the experts, though, to kind of build on what Lauren was saying, sometimes the state does try to have what's called a dual expert. So a dual expert is an expert that also was a treating physician. And I can tell you in South Carolina, that is extremely frowned upon the Court of Appeals. The Supreme Court does not like a dual expert.
They either need to be a treating physician giving knowledge about firsthand treatment, or they need to be an expert that didn't treat and is reviewing the records and giving an opinion based on their expertise. They do not like somebody that they try to do both with.
They.
When I had this issue come up in my last trial, we, you know, make sure the judge knew they have not kicked a case back for it. But it's Coming. It's coming. If the state keeps on, there is going to be a case turned over on appeal for using a dual expert. They don't like it. I imagine most states are probably the same. You either need to be the expert that was, that is reviewing it or you were the treating physician testifying as such.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: And I agree because as a treating physician, I don't think you can look at it with a expert opinion because you made these decisions and you were treating the person like you can't take that away, like you can't differentiate. So I agree. I think you either are part of it or you're not. And if you're not, that's when you can come in and be an expert.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Agree.
But yeah, a lot of people are learning and that's a good thing. I mean, yes, it's of kind, kind of scary to see such people don't understand and it, sometimes it can be frustrating because what you're seeing online is actually not matching up with the testimony at all. But I do think more information is out there for the better. When we have jury pools in the future, maybe we'll get somebody that actually knows a little bit more about what's going on. I don't think that's a bad thing.
So I do think there's some positive things coming from, you know, people not knowing how it works and hopefully they'll listen to this podcast and other things on social media and, and learn as well.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: Not just one thing. I have seen in a lot of this is Patrick Clancy with all the people saying he killed the children that could possibly be defamation lawsuits. And people aren't thinking about that because it's not.
People are saying he killed those children. She needs to be off. It's not, in my opinion, the evidence isn't lining up. They are stating facts that are untrue. And Patrick Clancy is not a public figure in our normal definition of public fit. So like if you're a public figure, there's a much higher burden to prove defamation. You have to prove there was actual malice with it where if you're a private citizen, you don't have to have malice.
And in this situation, he has not asked for this attention. So I don't consider, I don't think any court would consider him a public figure. So this is just a warning to all you tiktokers and influencers out there saying things.
You're putting it out there and even though you're not writing it, you are putting it in the media on your tik toks on your Instagrams, you are publishing it to the public. You need to be careful. And I don't care what you believe. But you need to preface. This is purely my opinion and this is why I'm questioning the evidence. And this is why. But not he did it. Because once you say that, you are stating a fact.
[00:20:42] Speaker A: Yeah. That you just got to be careful.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: And I think that's one of the things with trials and social media in today's time is so many people have access to say things. I guess one other question is, if you had been on this, would you have want your jury sequestered?
Absolutely.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: Oh, hold on.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: They're not.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: Okay.
I think as a defense attorney going into this trial, I would be worried about how she'll be perceived and ask them to be sequestered. But after starting the trial and seeing how social media has been so supportive of her, if later I wanted to ask that they be sequestered for the remain, I wouldn't. Right. I think.
I think beginning out, I would be a little cautious and probably request it. But in hindsight, seeing how supportive most people I see on social media, I don't know if that's my algorithm or not. It could be because I would. I would perceive my algorithm is probably more defense friendly.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: There are a lot of people in her support. 100%.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah. So I wouldn't, you know, you would see that. So I think the state. I think as a prosecutor, you would have.
[00:21:57] Speaker B: I think they were like thinking like you at the start, though. I think they thought social media was gonna be like, oh, this woman killed her children, you know, and now it's pretty much the opposite. I just thought that was interesting in such a big case. I will say one of my complaints with this case is how many breaks this judge takes. Takes. That man takes some breaks. I mean, he's a judge. He gets to do what he wants to do. But dear Lord, like last week, we ended testimony on Thursday and didn't come back on Friday. I need to see it.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: Maybe he's a smoker. New smokers need more rags as judges.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: He's also an old man. He may be tired, he may be hungry. He may have to potty.
I mean, there's probably a lot of reasons. And I know the jury probably does get antsy, like they do need to get outside, take a break, like that type stuff. But for me, your breaks are messing up because that's when I have a break in work time and I want to be washing.
[00:22:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
And lastly, real quick, because I know Lauren has to jump off devastating news, I think for anybody in our generation.
We lost Hayden Panier this week. And she also, if you believe Lindsay Clancy did suffer from postpartum psychosis. I mean, Hayden was very open about postpartum depression, birth trauma, drug addiction.
So many things she opened the door to talk about publicly, I think, and make people feel comfortable about it. She didn't shy away from things that were hard in her life.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: She was a child star. So she was, I mean, she was in remember the Titan. She was what, only 17 when heroes came out. Like, she, she went through a lot as a child. And I will say we all loved her. But one of the biggest things I have for respecting her is the fact she did give up her child when she knew she couldn't handle it. And I think that's really big.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: If you can hear me, froze.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: Did my inner. I think my Internet went out.
[00:24:05] Speaker A: It said all, like all I want to say and then you stop.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: So I just want to say for Hayden, I think it was especially proud and probably one of the biggest moments of mother's love in all reality is the fact that she knew to walk away. Yeah, I think she knew and I hate it because, you know, I would
[00:24:24] Speaker A: never want it walk completely away. Like she saw her daughter, she saw her all the time.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: But she gave full custody to who could handle it. And that was one of the biggest things of love.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: And I think that's one of the biggest, most selfless acts is to know that your child is in better hands and to. And to step away. And like I said, she's very act. She saw her daughter. She had a great relationship with her daughter. That didn't change it, I think just she knew with her personal struggles as well as her career, it would be really hard to give her stability.
And so she gave her that. She gave her daughter everything. Love, stability, a mom by giving up custody, she gave her all the things she needed in a mom in the situation she was in, where it was going to be a co parenting situation, it was going to be in two different countries.
She gave the ultimate sacrifice and she was open about it, y'. All. Like, she talked about it. She owned up to why she couldn't be the, the legal custodian.
And I just think there's so many great things. And it happened in Greenville, which if you're listening to this and you don't know me and Lauren personally, we're in South Carolina. So to see that was just.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: And did you know her other Nashville star lives in Greenville now.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: So he was there.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: Yeah, he lives here now, but like he was traveling or something, so he wasn't here at the time. But we do keep her family and friends and previous co stars, you know, our thoughts and prayers because this whole heart. She was so young, 36 and she was so talented, very.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: And beautiful on the inside and out. So we will wrap up this podcast sending our love to Hayden.
Remember the Titans was. Is one of my favorite movies and I think that's. I know she wasn't a huge role in that, but it was so big to me and just how much she knew about football as a girl and I loved it and the relationship with her dad and that will be forever. Probably my favorite role of hers. Even though she wasn't the star of the film, she was the star of me in that film. And so like Lauren said, our prayers go out to her fans, her family, her. Her daughter especially. So with that, take care of yourselves, take care of each other and see y' all next week.
