Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
And welcome to another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: So today I'm gonna. There's been a lot of stuff going on in the Internet and stuff like that that I want to kind of get Lacy's outright opinion on.
And she hasn't heard what I'm going to ask her about before this. But before that, I do kind of have a question that is once again relating to Lindsay Clancy. Do you think so obviously Massachusetts was not in a death penalty state. Do you think if it had been in a death penalty state, do you think her attorney would have been more likely to get her to take a plea than to go to court? This is just like, from like a standpoint of if the death, like obviously with Murdoch death penalty on the table with a lot of his crimes and if Massachusetts is a no death penalty state, but if that had been on the table, do you think it would have changed his whole trial structure?
[00:01:04] Speaker A: I don't think so. I don't think even a state with the death penalty would have put the death penalty on her in her case with her history of mental health.
I mean, even with Murdoch, like, he doesn't. There's nothing to say mitigation wise as to why the death penalty is not on the table for him other than, you know, you do save money in appellate work and things post trial for sure.
But I mean, if you go by the state's theory that he just in cold blood murdered his wife and his son, why isn't the death penalty there? So the fact that the death penalty in South Carolina is not on the table for him. I know that Alan Wilson's making threats, but we all agree he's doing that for votes. He's not doing it for. He's not even going to be on the case case by the time it comes to trial.
He's running for governor. So, you know, he's just saying that to blow smoke up your rear end to try to get your vote. That's not happening. So the fact that it's not happening there when there's, you know, two loss of lives, I know there's three here. I just don't think they would put it on the table.
So I don't think it would change. Change a strategy because I just don't think it would be on the table in a death penalty state.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Now do you think that does in general influence.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Please.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: A lot more like we are death penalty state. So if you commit the same crime here versus a crime in Massachusetts, which is not death penalty, do you think you're more likely to get a less fair plea because you're wanting to stay away from the death penalty. Like, do you think that impacts it, like, where you commit the crime?
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Pretty much, I do. I mean, I have to say, you got to say something about the, The.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: The.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: The death penalty speaks volumes when we have specialized attorneys that do death penalty work. So here, Bobby bank is one, and he works with. I can't think of his name right now off the top of my head, but they do death penalty cases like they do. They go to extra training to learn how to navigate those in sentencing phases.
And I do know there was.
I can't remember which one, but there was one where they got a life sentence instead of death. And that was a win for them. It wasn't. They weren't looking to win the trial. Trial. They knew they were going to lose the trial. They were just looking to get it. And I think it was a plea. I think they were able to plea bargain that they pled to life instead of death. And that was a huge win in whatever matter that was. I don't remember all the details, but.
So, yeah, I definitely think it does alter it. You know, another thing that we look at is the Idaho murders. I mean, in watching that documentary on Netflix, a lot of the victims did want a trial. They wanted the death penalty in that case. But I think prosecutors, from a strategic standpoint with finances, how long this trial would take, all of that, if they could take it off the table and him accept guilt, that definitely did change the navigation of that entire case. I think so.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: But isn't he in that case? Is he going back to court to try to undo his plea? Is that what's going on?
[00:04:13] Speaker A: He is. He's saying he's innocent now. And what makes me mad at the prosecution is I understand taking the death penalty off, even if the victims are opposed to it. I understand strategic, strategically making that decision. And the victims get an input, but they don't make the decision that is the prosecutor. And they take a lot of things into account.
And I think they did a good job doing that. My pet, the thing that bothers me, not even a pet peeve, this bothers me to the core, is they didn't make him allocute. And so now he's coming back saying he's innocent. He doesn't like the jail conditions, the food, all these, all this other stuff, essentially is what I've heard. It is the true reason why. But now he's saying he didn't do it. That's why you have them allocated? We just watched a full documentary of families who. Yes, they're mad that the case didn't go forward with trial and the death penalty wasn't imposed. But they're also. What they're really mad about in my opinion at the core is they don't have closure. They don't know why he targeted them or how long, or who it was specifically. Or was it multiple people in the house. We don't know all these things, how long it had been going on.
We have like a feeling of it. Based on the cell phone data that they got, they knew that he was going to that side of the state, in that area multiple times. Then he quit going after the murders. So we do have some indication. But I just think if you had made him allocute, this is what happened. I saw this girl.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Acute means, huh? Can you tell us what allocute means for us non criminal people?
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Make him say what happened and what led to the crimes.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Okay, okay, okay.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Like make him come forward and say, I was obsessed with this girl. I asked her out at the, at this club, she turned me down.
So that made me mad. And then I started following her. Like, what happened? Why did this happen? Who were you targeting? How long was it planned?
You know, and then walk us through what happened. As hurtful as that would be to here as a family, I think they needed that closure more so than anything. And that's just. Maybe they don't feel the same way. That's my opinion from watching the documentary, in their words.
But again, if you had made him do that, he would be able to come back now and say, well, I'm innocent, reopen my case.
Right.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Because you would have known the whole motive. You would have known everything. And it would have been, I'm guessing in a sworn statement.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: Yeah. In open court to the judge. I would have had him face the judge and say. I would say I will take the death penalty off the table, but in give life sentence, but he has to stand up to the judge and say why he did this, what led to this crime and what happened.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: And he would have been like under oath doing this. So like would it have been under perjury? I guess.
[00:07:04] Speaker A: I don't know if they do it. You don't see it often.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: Okay. I just was curious, like I'll be
[00:07:10] Speaker A: honest, you see it mostly on TV like Law and Order, but.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: Okay.
But it is an option.
[00:07:18] Speaker A: I would have made him do it in a case like this. I think a lot of times in cases the cops figure out why it happened and what happened in the full story. But. But, you know, in his case, like, things were wiped off of his computer.
If they hadn't found that knife sheath, I think he would have gotten away with murder straight up.
But I think that one mistake cost him.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: Well, we will see what all happens with that when he goes back to court. But for our topic today, so have you seen on TikTok and on Facebook and Instagram this woman who is saying she's pregnant for like 40, like 50 weeks with twins?
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Briefly, I saw something. I don't know more than I saw that. Briefly.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: Okay. All I have seen is what's swirling around on Facebook. And there is a woman that has mental health issues that she's already lost three of her kids previously and supposedly she's had a hysterectomy. Did you watch that documentary on Netflix about that other woman who went, okay,
[00:08:22] Speaker A: who killed her friend's baby, her wedding photographer's baby?
[00:08:26] Speaker B: Yes. So there was a documentary on Netflix where this woman claimed she was pregnant. She couldn't have been pregnant. She was like, had her tubes tied or something.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: She had a hysterectomy. She had some, some health issues. Yeah.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: And so then later she murdered a woman and cut her baby out to try to have a baby to keep her man and convince everybody she was pregnant.
So at this point, there's another woman that is seemingly doing this on the Internet. She has mental health issues. From what I'm saying. From what I'm saying. And she has lost custody of her other kids and she is now saying she is like, past due with twins and she's at like 50 weeks. Okay.
Obviously, if you were having twins and you're at 50 weeks, they've either died or you weren't pregnant. I mean, and I'm not saying, like, in the past, I know women have went past 40 weeks and you can go to 4,000, 142, but at that point after that, usually the baby has died and your body just hasn't forced it out.
And that does happen. That is legit. They have actually seen, like, skeletons with fetal remains in and stuff like that. Like, there's stuff that will happen with that. But this woman, I guess at this point, she's obviously not pregnant. Supposedly her daughter is pregnant.
Her daughter that she's lost custody of is pregnant, about to have a baby.
So at this point, I guess from your standpoint, what should people do? Like, should you be commit? I think this kind of, like, all runs into, from my standpoint, where does Mental health cross into. Where do we proactively go at this point? So we've seen this other Netflix documentary. Obviously, women will kill to get this baby, which that woman is on death row, which is very rare for a woman to be on death row, but she is.
So I guess to your standpoint, hearing this, what are your honest thoughts? Like, should somebody go try to commit her? But she hasn't done anything? Like where? I guess, like, that's kind of where I'm at. Like, after all the stuff with Lindsey Clancy, to me, it's like, where do we draw the line and where do we try to commit somebody?
And I feel like this woman we've seen past this has happened. What do you feel?
[00:10:35] Speaker A: So one thing I've noticed in my job as well is people who are mentally ill and can, you know, most of the time there's exceptions. So most of the time that can. They can be treated with medication, maybe other treatments, and then they
[00:10:54] Speaker B: are.
[00:10:54] Speaker A: Are good. Like, they are that typical reasonable person that we are looking to have. Right.
Fully functional.
So with that into account, I believe though a certain level of mental illness, they can't see that light. Like, even if you tell them they will be successful on medication and they will feel so much better, they can't see that because they are so deep almost into like a psychosis as well, like with her thinking that she's pregnant. So I do believe somebody should step in and ask her to be committed. I think where the line is, is how is somebody functioning in society?
If somebody has anxiety and depression, like, they can't, you know, they can get out of the bed to go to work. They're. They're paying their bills. You know, maybe they don't do anything else, though. They're just staying in the bed.
It is what it is. Like, encourage them to get help and get treatment. But if for the most part they are functioning like we envision most people in society at that age to function, I don't think you can be committed. I think you have to ask yourself, are they functioning healthy in a way that is contributing to society?
And this does not sound like she is.
So I think that's kind of where it is. And this all stems back, I've said it before on the podcast, to where we close down all the mental institutions because they were not being ran properly.
We should still have institutions for people.
And they will be in a lot of people. Like, I think her, if she got on medication, if she got on a treatment plan, if she was put into an institution, and treated properly, with dignity, put on her medication so she would be able to see the world as it is and not in this altered state of reality. And so I think that's what we have to look at is somebody really seeing, you know, able to go to work, able to function as like me and you are each day. But maybe they're just not as well as they could be and need some type of therapy, maybe they need some medication. But for the most part they can function normally.
She is not there if she thinks she is pregnant with twins, she cannot be pregnant. She believes she's 50 weeks. She is clearly not at all in right state of mind. I bet she's not working. I bet she's not doing these things that we, that she should do at her age and somebody should step in and go through probate. But that would kind of be in my, in my opinion, that would be my.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: How.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: How I would weigh it.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: I guess the hard part with her too is, I don't know, supposedly the man that got her pregnant was like a one night stand or something. And I don't know if she has any family or anybody that she has kids, but obviously she lost them. I don't know if I still care about her. I don't know her parents.
And I guess with all this being out there, who's. I mean, I guess the thing that I guess is a big issue is who steps in to say, hey, we need to do something. And also like at this point, because we know she's going through this craziness if she does, obviously, I'm sure they put the hospitals on high alert like they did in that documentary, that if she shows up with the baby, and I'm hopeful her daughter has went to where she has no idea where she is.
But if this woman does something crazy and does what that other lady did, should anybody be held accountable at this point? Because it's out there to the world. I mean, I guess that's the hard part. And I think that's where it's like for me, like with the Lindsey Clancy case. Everybody's seeing it in hindsight, right? We're seeing this. Something, a mental health issue obviously come into play. Something could go wrong. But at what point could anybody have done anything differently? And I guess right now we're seeing it play out.
Could somebody or should somebody step in now? Can the state, I know the state can take care of people, like wards of the state and stuff.
Normally those are not situations like this where somebody, I guess is having more of a Psychotic break. As much as typically like an elder person who has no family and needs to be in a nursing home or a disabled person who. Their family, they have no family anymore and needs to be in a group home. So this is kind of one of those different situations. It's not typically where you become a ward of the state.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. I definitely think somebody should step in. But it is difficult, though, like you said, if she has no family, who steps in. But I swear I have a probate order.
And they were like, it was not initiated by family.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: It doesn't have to be. So, like, you don't have to. So like a lot. Okay. So a lot of times. So I haven't dealt with this in like these situations. I've dealt with more. A nursing home wants to step in and have somebody appointed because this person's at the nursing home. They've got money sitting there to pay the nursing home, but this person can't function anymore to make the bills come. So the nursing home forces the court to put somebody in control of the money.
But I haven't seen it as much when somebody is not in some type of group home or some situation already. But friends can commit people. Like, you don't have to be a family member to do it, but you're supposed to give notice to family members.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. I definitely think anybody in her inner circle that knows her and now can a healthcare professional do it? Like, if she.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: The emergency, like, if you were. There's different levels to like to get in South Carolina, typically to get a guardianship, conservatorship. That's not an emergency expedited one. Those take time and you have to get doctors as part of it. But you have to have somebody willing to step up and serve these roles or have companies come in that have to be paid to do it. Now, if it's an emergency situation, typically what happens is you take the person to the ER and the ER doctor sees that it's an emergency situation and then commits the person. They have a hearing. Like a judge still has to commit them, but they have an emergency one and it's a temporary hold until you can start a real process to get them in that type situation.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
That needs to be done. Like, and if a doctor has treated her and come and this is what is going on, I think they should definitely initiate the process to get her committed under probate.
I have seen people committed into probate for much, much less.
[00:17:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
And I will say to put all this with a grain of salt. This is all on the Internet. And she could be completely normal, functioning person who's doing this to get views and become an influencer and make money. So I do want to put this all with a grain of salt that we don't know her and this is not us. But if this is truly really in her brain, I think this is where people do need to step in before somebody gets hurt. Because if it's like that other case, and I will say the case that was on Netflix where that woman is sitting on death row, it kind of surprised me that none of her friends stepped up and went and told her
[00:18:23] Speaker A: new husband, her own mom knew that she couldn't be pregnant.
[00:18:31] Speaker B: I get like, it's hard for me because with doctors, like they have a hipaa, obviously they can't just come out and tell you, oh, she had a hysterectomy, but they're in a smaller town. Like, I don't get in that situation how her mama or her friends didn't go up to this man and say, she can't be pregnant, she don't have a uterus to hold a baby. Yeah, that kind of got me in that situation.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: And so, yeah, two things. I don't know how she got away with it for that same exact reason. Like, they literally. And yeah, she might be nasty and mean, but still, like, which his family did eventually hear the information and gave it to him and he was trying to catch her in it and she just kept going. But I don't know. I don't know how that ended up going as far as it did. I agree that I feel like it could have been.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: That could have been stopped. I feel like, yeah, maybe not her being terrible, but.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: Right. But second, you know, I think it's an important thing to notate too how different that case is, is from this tick tock situation.
It does sound like she is just not mentally well. And there is another Law and Order episode where there is a woman who thinks she's pregnant and they take her to the. And she's not.
And there is a, there's a word, there is a diagnosis for that.
But the, the documentary we're talking about where she's on death row. I mean, there was a, there was a lot of evidence to show intent.
Like she intended to hide that she actually wasn't pregnant. She bought f bellies and she did a maternity photo shoot. Like, it's, it's just, it was vastly different. It was all to con this man so he wouldn't leave her. Whereas I, you know, this case that you're talking about definitely seems like more mental health. I don't think there's any evidence of mental health issues in the case where
[00:20:25] Speaker B: she think that woman. It appears she was. I. I don't know what was wrong with that woman in that situation,
[00:20:34] Speaker A: but,
[00:20:34] Speaker B: like, I feel like. I mean, I'm not here. It's hindsight's 20 20, but she was her boyfriend that lived in the house with her.
How did you not touch her tummy or see her tongue? Like, I mean, she would say that.
[00:20:48] Speaker A: It didn't say she didn't like it or she would make up all these excuses to get away with it.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: But if that's my baby, like, I want to feel it kick.
Like, I don't know. That case really broke my heart, though,
[00:20:59] Speaker A: because that was horrible.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: Seeing that poor family that was so excited about this girl. It was going to be her second child. Right.
She was pregnant.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: I think she had two other children.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: And I mean, they were excited for it. This woman wanted to be a mom. Like, that was her goals in life. Like this.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Oh, the one she killed. I thought you were saying the one that was the killer.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: No.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I do think it was her first child,
[00:21:30] Speaker B: her second one. Right. And they wanted to have another one. And she was married to the man she loved. And this was like a wanted baby. She always wanted to be a mama.
Like, this was a situation where this baby was very much wanted and they loved their daughter. And.
Yeah. And she's. She is on. What state was that? Texas?
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I want to say it was Texas. And she killed not only the mother,
[00:21:54] Speaker B: but the baby for the child, because the child at that point, I think the mom was like 36, 37 weeks.
[00:22:02] Speaker A: She was almost full term. The baby could have for sure lived if she'd gone into labor now, you know, early.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: And even if she, like, had, even if she wasn't quite 35, the baby was formed enough that if it was born in the hospital, the baby would have survived. That case broke my heart. But she is in on death row in Texas, and she might be one of the only women sitting up. There's not many sitting on death row. And she's.
Whether I have mixed feelings about the death penalty, she definitely is a horrible person.
It definitely, like, I know, you know, we talked about Arlene Warner's before and how she is your favorite serial killer. I don't know the right way to word that, but I will say, like,
[00:22:47] Speaker A: I don't either, but I love her.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: After I watched a documentary on her Yeah. I had a lot of mixed feelings about her going on death.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: Because she wasn't out there killing innocent people like it. It was. She shouldn't have killed. But.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: But there were things you could empathize with in her past and that make you understand what led her to what happened.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Where in this situation with this woman in Texas. She's just plain evil.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: Ain't got nothing I can't defend.
I just. It is what it is. She's terrible. She terrible. She's. She absolutely planned this and plotted this. And I. I mean, I'm curious as to what part in her plan. Did she know that she was going to take that baby? Because I don't think it was that day. I think she knew well in advance what her end game was.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Yes. That's why she got close to it, was to be able to call her and say, hey, I'm coming over, and you not be worried. And then.
Oh, that was awful. That was definitely premeditated, 100%.
[00:23:52] Speaker A: Well, they. In the way they described how she cut her open just makes you agree.
I. I don't like the death penalty for many, many reasons. Some financial as well, the process with the appeals and stuff like that.
But I, I don't shed a tear that she's on it.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: And if you haven't watched that documentary on Netflix and you're thinking about watching it, be prepared. It is probably one of the hardest ones I've watched.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: If you are pregnant or you have a newborn baby, I probably would advise not watching it until you are.
Even if you like true crime stuff, don't watch it until you're in a different phase of life. But I would say if you're pregnant or. Yeah, I can listen to some great things, but pretty harsh things at different times. But if you're not doing criminal defense and, you know, seeing this stuff all the time, probably avoid that until you're in another phase.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: Yep. But we are going to keep going on talking about things in the next episodes. We haven't made our plans yet, so if there's anything that you want to hear about, let us know. And we will be seeing Lindsay Clancy come up again in court at the end of the month, so I'm sure we'll have an update on that, too. So let us know what you want to hear about.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Yep. And we'll see y' all next week.
[00:25:14] Speaker B: Bye.
