Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Lauren, we're back.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Yes. This is episode two of our podcast, and we are excited to be back and kind of talk a little bit more about being a mom and being a lawyer. And a lot of times there's a lot of crossover in mom life and lawyer life and dealing with difficult kids and difficult clients.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: I am dealing with both of those. Like, right now. I literally just got a text from my nanny that Mac is mad at her because she let her nephew out of the car before him after preschool pickup.
And this has been. Lauren, this has been our life for. Honestly, he's been really hard since his birth, but ever since he turned three, I mean, it is just tantrum after tantrum. Was Kylie like this?
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Kylie is very. Has her tantrum. She's very sassy, and she's very headstrong. And I thought Maddie was not going to be as tantrum having. But here, recently, as we are approaching turning three this December, she has found her little voice and has a lot of little tantrums.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: Okay, so maybe it is just this age. So, like, yesterday, we were getting ready to go to school, and he woke up. Like, I woke him up in time for breakfast. He didn't want to get up. So when I finally got him up and downstairs, I was like, you're gonna have to eat your breakfast in the car. We've got to go. You've got school. And, Lauren, I kid you not, he went to the table and flipped his plate of grits that I was fixing for him to take him to the car and threw him all over the table.
So I flipped, and he got into the timeout chair. He was crying. And then we got out the door and. But like I said, this is. This is almost every morning before school. Last week, he said he wasn't going to school. And so on one side of my house is the playroom, and then there's a den, like, in the middle, and then the garage on the other side. He took off running to the playroom and sat down, and he's like, I'm not going to school. I'm staying home with Daddy. So my husband teaches virtual, and I just don't think he's understood the concept that, like, Mark is working so he thinks he can stay home. Like, no, he's home, but he's working, like. And so I went to the playroom. I said, get your butt in the car or you're gonna go in time out. And, Lauren, he looked at me and said, I'll go in time out. And he ran to the kitchen and Put himself into the timeout chair and sat there and looked at me.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Well, at least he did that. Mine was. If I say time out, she just runs away. And time out really means nothing too much. My little. Well, I had told them if they were bad, they were good to go to Grandma's house. And my little one, Maddie, was intentionally bad. And she said, but I want to go to Susu's. Susie's, what she calls my mama.
So.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: So she's being mad on purpose to go to Susie's house.
Oh, my God.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: I'm also in that phase where don't like you, Mama.
No, mama, everything.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: Oh, I haven't got the. I don't. I've gotten to leave me alone. He tells Macley, tells me to leave him alone. He did it twice last week. In the morning I opened the door, I was like, good morning, buddy. Leave me alone.
[00:03:18] Speaker B: Maddie is. She enjoys her sleep. So she does not like. So we get up at 6:30. Well, I get them up at 6:30.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Kylie's usually awake. Kylie gets up somewhere between 5:30 and 6 most days.
Then she just gets in the bed with me.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: Till about. I want to get up, but Maddie does not like to get up. And so the mornings are difficult. She doesn't want to get up. And it takes her a while to get adjusted to life, but once she gets to school, she's happy as can be.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: Yeah, Max gotten a smiley face every day. His teacher said he has really good days. It's just a little rough when he gets there. But, like, once he settles in, he does what he's supposed to do. Like, he follows instructions. And so, like, I'm so Luke. We get AIDS paid for by the state to help with Luke. So. So we've had Katie since Luke was born, but we have Renee now as well. So they. We had so many, like, allotted hours based on his needs. So Renee has been helping him. So sometimes we ask Renee to babysit both of the kids. And so it's separate, but we've gotten to know her as the aide. But now she just. She. She does both. She'll sometimes be with Luca. Sometimes she'll babysit with us on the weekends. And she's kept them the past two Thursdays because we had the Hootie concert last week. And then we went and saw my cousin Sean's play the week before on Thursdays. And she said Mac was great. She said Luke was the one she had issues with just not listening, nothing abnormal. But, like, you know. But she said Mac did it you know, bath time. No problem. Bedtime, no problem.
He. He is the worst for me now. How are they with Wesley?
[00:05:00] Speaker B: They're better for him. They're probably the worst for me.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's the same here. There.
It is so frustrating, because I hate, like, I never wanted to be that mom that says, oh, I'm gonna get. I'm gonna go get your dad. And I. I'm that mom now. Like, this morning, he was laying on the bathroom floor. Mac was. And just refusing to stand up and put on his pants. And I'm like, you like to eat breakfast before school. You like to sit at the table. You don't like eating in the car. We're, you know, this is your time to choo. And he would not. Mark comes in there and goes, get up and put your clothes on. He stands right up.
[00:05:37] Speaker B: I won't say mine are that good for their dad. They still like, what? Yesterday we went to buy new outfits because school picture day is coming up. And so I went to this little store down. And it was super cute. Little nice frou fruit store down him. Callie decides she wants to take her dress off and yells out, it's booby time.
This was in the store.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: And she took her dress off completely.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: She lifted it above her head and said, it's booby time.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Where did you get this?
[00:06:11] Speaker B: I'm sure she sees this when she's, like, 15 years old. She's going to be quite embarrassed, but, yes. Oh, my gosh, yes. Trying to wrangle her back in and keep clothes on in the middle of, you know, a nice little shop. Luckily, it was all women in there, and they were all very understanding and accommodating with her. But it is. Sometimes we have to deal with those same situations with our clients.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: This is true. Yeah. Tantrums are not just.
They should be just for kids, but they're not.
So a difficult thing I've been dealing with. And it's.
I don't say it's a lot, but, I mean, it's not uncommon either, so. So with criminal defense, you know, I represent. And sometimes people are guilty, sometimes people aren't, and sometimes they're guilty. But, you know, we have mitigating factors. They should get a second chance and stuff like that. But one of the hardest things for me is I can't make a decision for my clients. Right. So if I get the evidence in the case, if it doesn't look good, I can advise them on plea offers. And sometimes I'm like, hey, this is a really good Offer. I think this is the best that, you know, we can do to protect you. I recommend taking it. Sometimes I get the evidence in the case and review it. And talking to my client, I'm like, hey, if they don't dismiss this, I think you should go to trial. I think you're innocent.
You know, this is why I think you should.
But ultimately it's up to the client. So like recently, like I said, it's not uncommon. This isn't the first time. It's just a client not being able to make a decision. And it's a marriage go round. And it is so frustrating. Like, there's only so much I can talk about the same case. Like, the evidence isn't changing. It is what it is. I don't care sometimes if they take a plea offer or go trial. Like, sometimes, you know, but there's some case like, like, listen, it is up to you. You're. I think you're gonna be okay either way. But it's up to the client to decide whether to take a plea or go to trial. But you have to choose like these, Some of these cases are years old and it is just like, make a choice. I will get your case ready for trial. I will be ready to go. Let's do it. Or I will present the best mitigating factors in front of the judge if you want to take the plea offer.
And it's like, I don't understand, like, just, just make the decision and I will support you in it 100%. But it's just so hard because I don't have the power to dismiss a case.
I just don't. Like, it's up to the prosecutor. It's up to a judge if we go to trial at a directed verdict.
But most of the time it's in the prosecutor's hands to dismiss the case. It's not in mine. And it's the client's choice as to whether or not they want to take a gamble. And it's just been really hard recently. Just, you know, the cases have been the same for you. Like, you know, just plea offer, a trial. I'll support you.
So do you.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: That's kind of how it's different in like. Yeah, well, context of things. So like in the civil world, you have a case that comes up and we have to go through mediation.
So like. And honestly, most judges out there gonna make. Even if it's not required, like probate mediation isn't required, the judge is still going to tell you to mediate because that's just Required and everything. And I think that's where we deal with a lot of difficult decisions, is, do I settle the case or not? Because you can have the best case in the world where you really should win that million dollars back, but you can have a jury that doesn't see it that way. So you're always hanging and gamble. So for us, I think when we're sitting at, like, mediation or getting close to trial, and we're like, do you want to settle it or do you want to move forward? I think for us, it's kind of not all or nothing. Like, with a plea deal, I mean, or with, like, going to trial. Like, I think in the criminal world is very all or nothing. Here, usually when we hit mediation or we settle a case, one, nobody's gonna be overly happy and nobody's gonna be overly mad. You're both just kind of. It is what, like, right. Rarely. That situation where you get everything you wanted in a civil case. Because here's the thing. You have the best case in the world, and this is kind of where on the civil side, you'll see the justice system isn't always fair in it either. I know we see issues in criminal, but in civil, you could have awesome case.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Mm.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: But you're suing somebody huge, like a big corporation or Walmart or something like that, and they have the resources to bury you with discovery.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: To bury you to where, like, going to trial is going to cost you more money than what the case was worth. So I think that's kind of like, the harder side in civil is seeing, like, a lot of wrongs still be wrong and not being made 100% whole. But we have to weigh the pros and cons of, like, okay, you could go to trial and win that $150,000, but if we walk away with this settlement at 60, you haven't spent nearly the attorney's fees. You haven't went through nearly the headache. And it's kind of. That's the same point that we can't make the decision for the clients, but we have to look at it and say, what's going to be best for you financially? What's going to be best for you overall, or what's going to be best for your mental health. Because even in the civil world or the probate world, litigation is hard on people like to see. Especially in probate, we see families just torn apart because they're arguing over some stuff. And it is hard.
But they do want us to tell them what to do, and we can't ultimately, the client's in control of the decision.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: Did they like, so for civil. Is there a deadline? Like, so let's say you like. Well, I guess so at mediation. So you get presented like, hey, this is what we've kind of mediated. I guess you take that, you talk to your client, say, hey, is this good enough? Do they have to make a decision, like, right then and there, or do they have time? How does that work?
[00:12:26] Speaker B: So typically with civil mediations, usually if you get a good mediator and there are some awesome ones here, you know if the case is going to settle or not, pretty quick. Because, like, if you both come in and you're way too distant, the mediator will be like, okay, let's just check the box, say, and we mediated. But let's not waste anybody's time here because you're paying that mediator, usually as a really experienced attorney, so you're paying them, like, a good bit of money to mediate the case. So if it's not gonna be fruitful, they're good at telling you that at the start. But sometimes, like, I've had one mediation that lasted 13 hours.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Oh my God, was that to me, like, at night.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: So like, we started at like 10 in the morning and finished at like 11 o'clock that night.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: I remember that. I remember you texted me.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: It was exhausting for everybody. But we did settle that case. But you don't have to settle. But pretty much in the civil world, you have to mediate within a certain time frame. And then once that time frame's up, you get put on the trial docket. And so, like, the trial docket in the civil world here in South Carolina is controlled by the clerk's office. So they just like, see a case, see, you've mediated it, like, it's been sitting there. You get put on the trial docket. And so now once you're on the.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: Trial docket, can you still work out an agreement? Or at that point you're. You can.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: Okay, so like, a lot of times you will get ready for trial, and even like the day of trial, people will, like, settle. I remember one time, so after I graduated law school, I clerked for a circuit court judge. So I got to see a lot of crazy trials and stuff. But we were in the middle of a trial, and it was like, a really interesting one. I can't remember what it was about now, but they ended up settling it in the middle, and the jury was so mad they didn't get to make that decision.
[00:14:19] Speaker A: Have you had clients or like clients storm out during mediation.
[00:14:30] Speaker B: I haven't. I will say most of mine, for the most part, have been pretty calm. I mean, like, have you heard of.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: People having clients or like, like storm out of mediation?
[00:14:45] Speaker B: Well, I think what we. So, like, in the business world and in the probate world, a lot of times we're dealing with stuff which still is hard. I mean, like, you know, money's hard, but like, I think where you see a lot more of. I think probate has a lot of higher emotions than business sometimes because there is a death usually involved.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: But luckily we are not in family, because I have heard horror stories of family mediations. Yes. Where people storm off. There's cursing, there's hollering. It is just a nightmare.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Now I definitely know we're talking about, like, with. With deadlines and stuff. Like, I mean, sometimes I have case lasts for years. And honestly, if I have a client that has a prior criminal history, it's not as difficult because they're. They're used to being able to find jobs with the. The criminal history they got, they have. So if there's a pending charge, it really doesn't bother them very much in, you know, moving on with the future. But it's clients that I have for years, you know, like, their case can drag on for years, and they don't have that criminal history. So that pending charge is really prohibiting them from, like, moving forward. Those are the hardest. And like, most of the time I have a plea offer on the table, but sometimes, you know, my clients innocent and they shouldn't take the plea offer. But then the consequences. And I hate there's a consequence for not pleading guilty when you're not guilty, but the consequences, having a pending criminal charge on your record.
And there's nothing I can do. Like, there's nothing. So I know that our supreme court has said 10 years is a violation of a speedy trial. But, you know, if anybody's listening this, like, hey, what's a speedy trial? I don't know.
I can tell you. 10 years. The Supreme Court dismissed a case or court of appeals, I can't remember, but a case was 10 years old, and they dismissed it and said that's a violation. But I've also had a case go to trial that was four years old.
So it really is a case by case decision. I guess at this point, there's really not a clear rule on, you know, and I think that's why some. So many people plead guilty and take plea offers, even if they don't think they're guilty because they don't, you know, they have to do something. They'd rather plead and have a conviction for a misdemeanor than have a pending felony, even if they are not guilty of the felony.
And I have clients who are really upset about that, and it's taken out on me, and I just have to take it, even though it's not in my control. I don't get to set the trial docket. I don't get a say on when the trial docket is.
And it's really hard. I'm just kind of stuck sometimes. And then my clients get upset and have meltdowns, and I get it, like. And I just have to take it because I'm like, yeah, this does suck. Like, it does. Yeah. I'm so sorry. It really does. And then go home to the. To the meltdowns at home. And sometimes days can get really, really rough. I feel like I punch him back some days.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah, we can deal with that. Same in the Civil War, like, it's not fair if you have a client that truly, you know, like, didn't breach any duty or didn't do anything wrong.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: But it's like, if you pay this person, you know, some money, this case will go away, and you won't have to spend, you know, $20,000 on legal fees. So it's like, it sucks because you feel like you're just enabling people to do bad, but you're having to weigh the consequences. And then sometimes it is, like, is work the escape, or is home the escape? Which is the easier place to be sometimes?
[00:18:26] Speaker A: Because when you're talking about thousands. Thousands of dollars, I mean, they're probably blaming you, too. Like, well, I didn't do anything wrong, and that's why I paid you. You know, now you're telling me, I. It's in my best interest to do this, and they're gonna. And even though, like, you know, it's in the wrong, like, you just. You've probably seen things go south, and I have to. I've seen people get convicted of crimes that they're not guilty of. You know, so that. That's something that, you know, we have to tell our clients, and it goes south. And like you said, you never know what a jury's gonna do. And.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: And it's not always 12 of your peers. I mean, it's 12 people, but you're all from different life, different circumstances. You don't know what their beliefs are. I mean.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: So you never know what a jury will do.
[00:19:14] Speaker A: Have you Ever done what I've done and make your law partner call a client because you just. You just can't anymore.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: I don't know if I've had her call a client. I have had her call other attorneys before.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: Okay. And I don't mean I can't. I will, you know, but sometimes if I've talked to somebody so many times and I've said this same thing, I'll get her to call. And sometimes kind of like what you said with juries with just different perspectives. So just having another. And I mean, before I have her call, I'm like, look at the case. Tell me if I'm wrong. Tell me if I'm wrong. Tell me if you think anything different. And, you know, and I've done the same for her as well, so that's really nice.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: That's the great thing about having law partners. Like, I feel like there's always somebody to bounce an idea off of. So, like, you're like, did I do this wrong, or is this the best way to handle this? Before you go anywhere, you can be like, let's walk through this. And that is a lot of what our time sometimes is.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Is true.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: Catching up and bouncing ideas off each other.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: I agree. And we do that all the time. Even though we're not in the same office.
And just circling back the kind of where we started to wrap it up, I do feel the same at home. Like, I. When I am implementing, you know, consequences for what we're dealing with, Mark, you know, always backs me up in that. And it's like, you need to listen to your mom and stuff like that. Like this morning, like I said, even though it's frustrating that Mac just won't listen to me and listen to Mark better, I am grateful for that. Because I grew up with a single mom. You know, my dad was not in my life, and so it was really hard on her. You know, I mean, like, having two kids now, I don't know how she. How she did it by herself.
It's so much. And so even though I never wanted to be the mom that's like, hey, I'm gonna get your dad. I'm glad that I can be that mom. Like, hey, I'm gonna get your dad. Because I know he's gonna have my back and he's gonna help me. And even though it sucks that I can't, you know, sometimes get through to him, at least there's one parent that that can get through to him. And, you know, just like my law partner, sometimes I have her that can get through to a client and, you know, get a good result for them, too.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I will say life's better having a partner at work and a partner at home.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: My work wife and my home husband. And it makes things easier when you are going through the trenches, dealing with tantrums or upset clients, just to know there's somebody there that can help you for sure.
[00:21:43] Speaker A: And I'll help you, too, Lauren. I mean, like, I can listen to you and give emotional support. I won't know what you're talking about, like, in the big picture. Unless you're talking about the girls. Then I get the big picture.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: One thing we both can do. Like, we both know being moms of two little ones and having difficult clients just make days hard. And you run on caffeine for a lot of them.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm about to go make an iced coffee right now. That is what I'm going to.
All right, well, not sure what my kids or clients will do this next week, but I will talk to you next week, and we'll. We'll catch up then.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: All right. Bye. Hope you all have a great week.
[00:22:26] Speaker A: Bye, guys.
