Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Hey, everybody, we're back. This is Lacey and I'm Lauren, and we're here for another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: So today we're kind of gonna dig in more to the Gypsy. We're gonna dig into Gypsy Rose and then go back into the Menendez brothers. But one thing I want to ask you, Lacey, is a question beforehand. We get started, and it tags off of the last one and some things like feedback from the media and that type stuff. How much role in the case does it play what your defendant or your client wears when they testify on the stand? Because as we talked about, the Menendez brothers got a lot of, like, flack from the, like, New Year's out and all that stuff about their dress. So what do you think about if, you know, your clients going on the stand? I know you kind of touched on it before, but. But what are the big things you tell them?
[00:00:56] Speaker A: So the big things I want is I want my client to connect with the jury, right? So if my client's in a five piece suit and shoes more expensive than my fee, most likely they're not going to connect to the jury. You know, there may be 1, 2 if we're lucky, but especially in, you know, Richland County, a poorer part of the state, you know, Lexington, I think, does have more money. Um, they might resonate a little bit more over there with something like that, but definitely not Richland. But you want them to appear. If they went and sat in the jury, you don't want them to stick out, right? You want them to resonate. So something that I want my clients to wear is something nice that shows that this is important to you, but not too nice in that you are better than anybody in that courtroom.
So I. If I, if I have my. If my client wants to wear a suit jacket, I don't want to tie. You know, I don't want the shirt buttoned up just a little bit and then have it open, right. If they do a suit, if no suit, a nice dress shirt and some kind of dress pants, khakis or, you know, black or navy pants. You want to watch out for colors.
Red is really loud. You want colors that are going to soften your client.
I don't think it should be this way, but unfortunately it is. Even though the burden is on the state, we sit farthest from the jury with our clients, clients. And that always bothers me because it's my client that you're determining whether or not has committed a crime. And I feel like they should be the Ones sitting beside the jury. They are a human, they are a person just like anybody else. And you're there to determine whether or not they're guilty or innocent. And so, you know, I just think a lot of times juries come in and are looking at the defendant like, gosh, what have they done? Instead of did they do this or did they not? And so that's why I want softer colors. Not something that's going to be really loud and something that would, that, that blends and doesn't look too flashy.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: And would you give them the same pretty much advice whether they're taking the stand or not on their clothes? Because the jury will see them regardless.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, I'm very sexist in that most of my clients are men. There's a lot of men. But let's say, you know, roll it back with women and what they are wearing. You know, I guess with Menendez brothers, I went into what a male should wear. But for women, we do not want a dress that is really short. If there's a dress or a skirt, you want it coming down to the knee at least.
I would advise my client not to wear a shirt that is too low cut.
So those are the things I'm looking at and probably similar color schemes. I do think women can probably get away with d darker colors more so than males.
I don't think that matters as much with women for whatever reason, it's just in my head. So those are the things that I would look for because, you know, we are such a conservative state and I do believe those things show a, hey, I'm taking this, this seriously. I think women should be able to wear whatever they want to wear. But that depends on the venue. Right. If you want to bring out the low cut shirt and the mini skirt, go for it, whatever you want to do. But we got to think of the venue that we're wearing it at. Just like, you know, women, we wouldn't wear that to a funeral. We don't want to wear that to the courtroom. We're going to save that for dinner with our girlfriends when we go out to the club.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that makes, I think even in the civil side of things, we definitely want our clients to, to not dress too nice. I mean, we're usually fine, like if they're like an engineer or something, wearing that suit and tie because that's their normal way.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: But not wearing, you know, some Gucci shoes that are worth like $10,000 when most of my juries don't have that. And I will say I respect any woman who wears black, no matter what, because we all know, like, as women, we want to wear black and navy to look our best. I think that's another thing with women. But we're gonna jump into a woman who helped kill her mom today, so I think I'll know her. Gypsy Rose.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Yeah. So you're talking about on the last episode with being so invested in true crime, and I have to for far too long. And it's probably from my mom as well. She watches the same shows I do still to this day, so I know it comes from her. But Gypsy Rose is a story I've known about for such a long time. So it's. It's one of. I've watched so many things and read so many things, so I've just been fascinated with that story for as long as I can remember. So Gypsy Rose, her mother had Munchausen by proxy. And if you don't know what that is, it's a mental illness. Munchausen syndrome is when someone thinks that they are sick. When they're not, it's pretty much in their head.
And they believe, you know, all these diagnosis and stuff. Much housing by proxy is when you believe your child or another family member is sick, when they're not. So Gypsy Rose, she was in. In the news as a kid. She got to go to Disney World as a kid because it appeared at the time she was very sick.
Her mother said that she had cancer. They had said they lost everything.
One state built them a home, yet during Katrina, they lost everything. So a community pulled together to build a house with a wheelchair ramp. So that way, Gypsy, who was wheelchair bound, so we thought at the time, could get in and out of the home. She would take her to several doctors. She gave her all kinds of medication, medication that made all of her teeth fall out, made all of her hair fall out, and it turns out that she wasn't sick at all, ever. This was all her mother's mental illness. And I don't know how the doctors didn't catch it. I do believe she saw different physicians. 1.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: And one of the things was in. They were in Katrina, so they. They moved around a lot. And that's. This was before. This was like, in the 90s. And Gypsy Rose is actually only a few years younger than me and Lacy, so, like, pretty much her story. We've been the same age as her during this, but it was before the days where my charts could talk to everything, like, in the medical system wasn't as Connected. So they moved around. And then one of her biggest things was Katrina. Well, I lost all her medical records. We have nothing. And they weren't digitized like they are. I feel like in 2025, this would be harder to happen because I agree with our systems. But back then, so much stuff was still paper and files. So she got away with a lot more.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
So, you know, as Gypsy gets older, she's. She's realizing this. She's having secret. She's getting online in secret, and she meets this guy, and she wants to escape her mom. She knows she can walk at this point. And when. I mean, maybe. I don't know if when mom was home, she walked. And this. She just wasn't supposed to in public, but she, you know, realized these things and was, you know, realizing kind of what was going on. And she did have, like, her dad was alive. And the dad just believed the mom. He had no reason not to. So he thought his daughter was very sick and, like, that mom needed to take care of her. So he kind of took the back seat and wasn't around much because he thought, like, she was just so sick and how grateful he was to have her mother, who was so invested in her medical care, to be there for her.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: And one thing I didn't realize with them until recently, her mama was 24, and he was 17 when I didn't know that Gypsy. And they got married, and he had just turned 18. So, like, in today's time, Mama raped him. I mean, statutory, Right?
[00:08:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:00] Speaker B: I didn't know that either. I just. I had started reading some more articles about timelines, and I saw that, like, because she got pregnant when they're 1991. He was 18 years old when they got married. So, like. Yeah, he didn't know what he was doing.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: Right. He probably trusted her being older, you know. Yeah. So she probably knew. Yeah, I didn't know that at all.
So when she realizes everything and has his own relationship, they concoct a plan to kill Dee. That was her mother's name. And so the guy came to her house and waited. I think they were at an appointment or something, came home and ended up stabbing and killing the mom.
So Gypsy did not actually, as far as we know, kill the mom. She was just a part of the plan to kill her mom. She did. I believe they had sex after they. After he killed her, they escaped together. They left together. She was in disguise. They were later arrested. He ended up going to trial and getting convicted of the murder. And I believe he got life in Prison.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: She was testified in his trial.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And she was only sentenced to 10 years in prison. I can't remember what exactly her conviction.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: Was, but it was second degree murder. She pled to it, so. Correct. She. One thing I think the prosecutors in her case all acknowledged, she was a victim of being abused. But, yes, she played second degree. And it's kind of crazy. Like, in her situation, I didn't realize this, so I was reading some stuff the other night. Her mom, actually, from the time she was three months old, started this. She went to doctors telling her baby had sleep apnea, chromosomal defects. So this didn't happen as Gypsy grew up her entire life not knowing this. And yeah, when he came, they met online. The mom didn't like him originally because I think she kind of knew, oh, he's gonna come in and realize. And then he. One night, Gypsy said in one of her documentaries, her and her mom were like, playing cards or something before bed. Like something like. Or fixing each other's hair, makeovers. It was something like mom, daughter stuff. Her mom went to bed, she went and let him in. He came into the house, she hid in the bathroom, stabbed. And while he stabbed her mom to death. And then afterwards, she got on Facebook and wrote the is dead.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. So this story is coming to light around the time the Menendez brothers. It's been really in the media a lot in the past year because she was released from prison, she served her sentence, and she got out. And so, you know, I told Lauren I wanted to dive in these cases together because, you know, we know that Gypsy Rose was abused.
I'm firmly convinced the Menendez brothers was. So let's go with that thought process as we divulge into it more. So. So let's state that, you know, for this episode, all of us are firmly convinced that the Menendez brothers, too, were abused. So both of them are abused. Both of them killed or were involved in the killing and planning of their parents. We have two very significant prison sentences. Right. The Menendez brothers both got life in prison, whereas Gypsy Rose is now out. She was married, now she's divorced. She's with someone else. She's having a baby. She's getting to go through life. And I think me and Lauren both agree that she probably still has a lot of trauma. And I. I hope that she is still working through that. I can't imagine how you wouldn't going through what all Gypsy went through.
But then why don't the Menendez brothers. Because with the Menendez brothers, like I said, sexually abused by their dad, the younger brother being sexually abused by the dad and the brother, they are not getting any empathy for the abuse that they went through, even though Gypsy did.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Well, I guess one thing I would want to know, and I don't know if this is out there, is did the Menendez brothers get offered any pleas because Gypsy took a plea, she didn't risk going to trial. And with Gypsy, she might have went to trial and got off, or she might have went to trial and got a life sentence, but she took, and I will say probably part of her plea was saying she would testify against her then boyfriend in his trial. So I do think that played into her plea. But for me, it'd be interesting to see. Did the Menendez brothers turn down any pleas, or they wouldn't have got life. Maybe they would have got 30 years or something. So I think we have to take that into context, too, because Gypsy didn't go to trial. She didn't take a risk.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: And it's not necessarily the risk that the judges are looking for in a plea. It's the accountability. So because Gypsy took accountability for her part in the crime and didn't go to trial, I think that, of course, along with the abuse and what we're talking about here is what led to a lighter sentence than what the Menendez brothers got. So I definitely agree. You know, did they get some type of plea where they could take accountability for what they did and still get out at some point and not risk that life sentence? And, you know, we just don't know that. I don't think that's ever come out, whether or not they had any type of plea and what those plea agreements were or plea offer was.
So in both of these, I just think it's, you know, just worth mentioning the significant impacts of sentencing and how it can, even in similar cases and circumstances, like, I think these two cases have such a difference in the sentencing.
Now, the guy that did kill Dee Dee, Gypsy's mom, did get life. So that would be akin to the Menendez brothers, but he was not abused by her. You know, so the Menendez brothers being abused by their parents. So I think that is a clear thing that we can separate as to why he got life in prison for killing Dede and differentiate that from the Menendez brothers and, you know, tying all that together.
Back in this time, we were talking about how, Lauren, you're talking about how things were so different in the 90s, especially in California and stuff, and Gypsy's case was not in California, but we've come so far in the legal system with abuse in general with men. I mean, I think it was always hushed, a lot of abuse. Right. Especially if it was by a family member and it was just suppressed. And I think for men, even more so than women, it still harder to come forward and say that a male, it's hard for them to say I was abused. Not saying it's not hard for women, but in, you know, what we see online, I have seen a lot of things that say it's a lot harder for men to come forward. I remember there was a talk show that talked about it and how it was just how hard it was for men to come forward and say that another man had abused them. In the Menendez case, it's their own father. And so I think that has come a long way since the 90s as well, where we talk about the MeToo movement and coming forward and believing victims. So I do think that has changed since the 90s as well. Now, they did, like you said, come forward in the first trial and say that they were abused. So that was out there, but it wasn't. But it was suppressed the second trial, like you had said.
But I do think that is important to note and also understanding, you know, we have battered spouses syndrome. And so in some of the cases that you see that deals with that, you know, it typically is a female that's the victim. And if, you know, in cases we've seen where a woman kills her spouse and it turns out she was a victim of domestic violence for years and years and it wasn't in the heat of the moment. And that's important to note for these cases too. The Menendez weren't being abused in the, in that moment. Gypsy wasn't being abused.
You know, in that moment is her.
[00:17:23] Speaker B: Mama still giving her medicine? And like, I think Gypsy, the hard part is it was continual non stop abuse the entire time she was alive. And I think one thing that separates it for me, realistically, Gypsy couldn't leave. Like, Gypsy could not. Like, it was hard for her to leave because I think mentally Gypsy is not an adult when she does this. Like, yes, she was older than the Menendez brothers, but she had been on so many medicines and men so screwed up in her head. I would like to know if they did a test on her today. And this is no hate to her at all because she's.
But what is her actual mental state? I think her and Britney Spears, neither one of them are true adults because of the abuse they suffered. It's definitely the Menendez brothers. What separates me for them is one of them had went off to school at Princeton. Like, that was it for me. Like, you had left. You had went to. From California. What Princeton is Princeton in New Jersey. I don't even know where, but it's somewhere. Like, obviously, I was never in the Ivy League group, but they went off and had the opportunity to leave, and I guess that was kind of it for me. Yeah, you left and you came back to kill them and you left. Your brother was about to be able to leave as well, to go to college. Now, I know he says his dad said he couldn't go to Stanford. He had to say, and go to UCLA and live at home. But you're about to be 18 and you. They have cars. Physically, nothing is halting them from getting out except the fact they don't have. They won't live their lavish lifestyle. So I think that's kind of like a difference. Gypsy's poor. I mean, like.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: They're not very poor. They're very. They're living dirt poor. And Gypsy has no other family, really, because her dad isn't believing anything.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: I think Menendez brothers, looking at their stuff, they did have family. Like, there was the dad's sister who honestly believed they were abused. I think they had more resources than what Gypsy did is a huge difference to me.
[00:19:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's important to note. We're tying this abuse into how we've come far with battered spouse syndrome and understanding how somebody could be defending themselves from harm, even if it's not in the heat of harm.
In those cases that we're seeing where that's brought up, they are still living together.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: It.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: You know, they aren't apart in the. In the woman. In most cases, like I said, I'm not saying it can't happen for men, but in most cases for women, you know, they. They can't. They feel like they can't escape. They can't escape the abuse. They can't escape the situation. So it's important to note what you said that is significantly different. That ties along more into Gypsy, where she doesn't have any resources or anything to get out. And so as we wrap up these cases and tying them together, I want to get. I'm going to get my thoughts on what I think the appropriate sentencing should be. And I'm curious what your thoughts are, Lauren. I think Gypsy. I think it was appropriate.
I'm okay with the 10 years. I think she did play a part in it, she had so much abuse. Although if they had let her off the hook, I don't think. I think I would have been fine with that too. But I'm okay that it was the 10 years for the Menendez brothers. I think it. I don't buy the self defense. I will say that like, that they should not have served any time.
However, I do struggle with first degree murder in a life sentence because of their abuse.
So I don't.
If I had to give a number, I think I would say 20 to 25, like you were kind of saying with the plea negotiations. Was it 30? So I think minimum 20 max, you know, 25, 30. But I definitely do not think they should have gotten a life sentence given.
I do believe that they were abused, but taken into account, like you said, that they were able to escape it.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: And I think for me, I agree. I think Gypsy should serve some time because she did. It's hard for me because I do think mentally she was not an adult, but she did get on a computer, find a boyfriend, bring him to her house and plan a murder with him.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Or the purpose of killing her. Yeah.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: She. If they would have. I don't think she deserved life, But I think 10 to 15 would have been very appropriate for her because I do believe she was abused and her mama abused her from day one. Like.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: And she lived that life and she couldn't escape. And I feel sorry for her. I do. But I still think we have to have accountability for our actions.
And she did plan a murder. 100 she planned this murder. And the fact, I guess for me in that documentary where she comes out and talks about, oh yeah, we were doing our nails and all before I was gonna murder her that night. So I do think she was very much part of it.
I think she has came out very remorseful. Yeah. And I do think she's. The whole time she has taken accountability for what she did. I do hope she is in therapy. I hope her fan. I know she is. Her dad has came back into her.
[00:22:46] Speaker A: Life, fully embraced her. Right.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: I hope he's also going to therapy too, to know how to help her. So I hope her family is giving and I hope, I feel, I hope this new boyfriend, that is her baby daddy, same thing. I don't want her to get locked up in a cycle of abuse. So I'm hoping they are breaking this and all getting the help and medications they need.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: And she has said before you switch the Menendez with accountability. She has said this was not the way for me. To escape this was not the right decision. I should have made different choices to get out of the abuse.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: And I think in hindsight, maybe she could have and things would have been a lot different.
But for the Menendez brothers, I guess part of it for me is, do I believe their abuse stories or not? I mean, like I will say, watching their testimony on the stand, they were very, very convincing. And watching while the older one testified and told his little brother he was sorry for abusing him. And seeing both their tears, I don't believe they could act that good. But then we're in Hollywood, so who knows? Like, are they just very skilled actors? So I think that is part of it to me is where they truly abused or not. But even so, with their. If let's say they were abused, I do think it's hard. I mean, was it with them because the older one was gone, he could go get his brother out and they clearly planned this and they brutally murdered their parents.
[00:24:25] Speaker A: Now with the older one getting out and the younger one not yet being out, do you think there should have been different sentences then?
[00:24:34] Speaker B: I think there could have been the older one abused the younger one.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: Like, the young believe the older one's more culpable.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Because if it had just been the younger one by himself, still living in the environment. But the two of them, and I know siblings can be very close. They almost said they were like, on a twin, like, level of closeness, like.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: That bond and trauma bonding.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: Yes. But ultimately they deserve a very long sentence to me, because they had options and they had money. Like, you know, there was cash laying around that house. They could have stole, got out, been gone. They had family with connections. I know their dad was in a lot of power, so that did make it more difficult. But I feel like as far as the options go, they had a lot more than other people haven't. They had a lot more than a battered wife. Because these were parents. These were not spouses in this. And they were grown adults at this point. And they didn't grow up. I don't think.
I think they could have told their teachers or they could have went to somebody, went to the police with this abuse. But in every interview after. Right after this happened, all they did was talk about how they love their parents. And I think that's kind of it, too. Like, I don't know. That's kind of where. I don't know. And I'm not a psychiatrist, so I can't read into all that. Maybe life wasn't appropriate. But then we have to think about their danger to others as well in this, like, I don't know, I've listened to them talk. They're both very well spoken.
One thing they said, well, oh, we couldn't have done it for the money because we were the only kids. We're going to get it anyways. That as an estate attorney struck me as like not a good statement because your parents could easily rode a wheel and given it to charity. So like that kind of thought process, saying those things even after the fact make me do question it. And I do think they were affluenza kids. They were 100 spoiled affluenza kids. And so, I don't know, I mean, I think 30 years minimum for the older one at least. Okay, maybe a little less for the younger one, but they 100% premeditatedly killed their parents.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: So maybe not life, but a way more significant prison sentence and potentially differing sentences for the both for each brother.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: And everything goes into our opinion, right? We're in two different kinds of law. I think us being moms as well plays into that. I do think, you know, thinking of a mother abusing her child, we have a lot of empathy towards that. And I think that's why, you know, with the Menendez, I have so much empathy too, because again, it's a, it's a, I do believe he abused them, but I do understand the difference in that they were able to get out. And so I think that plays a part in, in our thinking process too. And this is how jury think too, guys, when trying to figure out credibility and cases and take in all different aspects of their lives. And you have two attorneys on here that, you know, where we're on board on one case and we're so significantly different on the other. And that's part of our judicial system. So I think that's a good way to, you know, wrap that up. And how many people's, you know, thought processes go into just one case with juries and a judge?
[00:27:59] Speaker B: Well, I will say I'm one of the most empathetic people in the world if I think you deserve my empathy. So I know I have. Honestly, I love it. And I don't know, you know, maybe if I really do see if they're truly sexually abused, I still think they both deserve probably 20 years plus just.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: Because one had escaped it, one was already out and chose to go back and, and deal with it in a way that they should not have dealt with it.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: But if you guys have opinions, definitely let us know what your opinions are. We'd love to hear. Maybe we'll post a poll on it and see. And then if there's cases you want us to dig into, let us know.
[00:28:37] Speaker A: Yep. All right, we'll see y'all next week. Bye.
