Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign is Lacey, and I'm Lauren, and welcome to another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: And this week, we're continuing our Halloween, like, spooky theme, and we're kind of going back to the serial killers, but there really is the question of, is this person even a serial killer by definition?
So he's in our spooky category. Ed Gein, who, you know, from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the movie Psycho.
So we're gonna dive into him a little bit this week, and we're gonna also compare the Netflix special that just came out to, like, real life Ed Gein as well. If you haven't watched that, it's definitely worth watching, but that's what you're in for today.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And before we get there, I wanted to get your advice on something. I don't know if I should have handled something differently as a parent, so I wanted to get your thoughts before we dive in. So this past Saturday, Luke was in, and Marco did it too. So we had a big down syndrome fundraiser for down syndrome of the Midlands. And you would shoot free throws for donations. Right.
So Luke was signed up and Mark was signed up to shoot the free throws.
As I mentioned here. Like, Luke is very athletic. Like, he loves shooting free throws and playing basketball more. So just shooting free throws. Like, he does that all the time at home.
So we're at the event, and they were signed up for one o'. Clock. So Mark is at one goal. Luke is at the goal beside him. I was counting Luke's free throws. Uncle Rusty, my uncle was doing the. Getting his rebound to keep shooting. So he had 25 minutes. So he had about five minutes left. And I'm assuming this couple. I'm assuming there are couples. A man and woman about my age came and they started shooting on Luke Skull.
And I thought for a minute, maybe they didn't realize Luke was competing. And I was like, come on, bud, you have this many shots, let's try to get one more. And I said, maybe. And then my uncle was like. Like giving me eyes, too, because he was getting kind of frustrated. And so he was just like, yeah, Luke, come on. You got four minutes left. You got this. Like, we're trying to hint, like, he's participating, right?
And so they kept shooting on his goal.
Never went to Mark's goal to shoot. And then the guy went behind Luke, shot over his head. At one point, Luke chunked his ball against the wall.
Eventually, the ball rolled to me, and I literally held their ball and wouldn't give it to them. So Luke could finish shooting his free throws. But I was really upset because it was very disrespectful to Luke, person with down syndrome. It disrespected him as an athlete and as a person participating in this event. Like, and I heard the woman say, like, oh, I want to make one before I start. I just need to make one and warm up. And I was like, this is not your chance to warm up. Like, he's competing in the event.
So like I said, I eventually held their ball and they were. They. I could just hear. I could feel them looking at me, and I didn't care, you know, I just held onto the ball. But I waited till after I later texted the person that helps run the event, because I knew she would want to know, and she was just as upset as I was. But should I have said something to them directly? Like, should I have said this is very disrespectful at a Down syndrome event to not respect my child who is participating in an athlete, or did I do the right thing and, like, just being kind of passive about it?
[00:03:33] Speaker B: What?
[00:03:34] Speaker A: I feel like I didn't advocate enough for him in that moment. But then I also thought maybe did and handling it in private with the coordinator.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: So this is hard for me because I'm naturally not a controversial person, like, as an introvert. So I hate, like, these situations in general, and they give me anxiety and make my stomach hurt. So just in general, I know this would be very hard. So I don't know what I would have done in the moment except, like, panic.
But also at this event, my mom probably would have been there if it had been for my child, and she probably would have went over and point blank said something and might have said rude things.
So I do think there's a balance.
I guess it's hard. I feel like it was really rude what they did because it was a Down syndrome event and your son, who has down syndrome, was participating in the event. So they just made a mockery of us. They were definitely in the wrong. Like, I think we all agree, yes, they were in the wrong. Probably maybe should have said something just directly to him about how disrespectful it was. But I also know, like, you don't want to make a scene because I will tell you what, like, I know Luke probably wouldn't take it in, in that moment and know what was going on, but you also don't want to hurt him either. So I feel like there's a balance, and it's really hard to know what to do. Cuz sometimes like my mom, I love her, but like she goes way too overboard on stuff. It doesn't like matter as much. Like, she's very protective of her grandchildren, obviously.
But like there's a balance. And I don't know, I probably would have done the same thing as you and been passive.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: But I feel like maybe in this situation I would have been in the.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Wrong to say something either.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: No, I think he would have been fine to been like, hey, like, I still think taking it up with the coordinator after the fact so like she knows and maybe in the next event can help prevent this.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Like definitely she said that she's gonna let everybody know next year that someone when they sign up, that there's no warm ups and to please respect athletes of all abilities. But like, it really disheartens me that we have to do that at our own freaking event.
[00:05:33] Speaker B: I don't probably think it was anything with Luke having Down syndrome. It's probably these people are just entitled and thought, oh, there's a kid over here, I need to shoot my free throws. I matter more. And it's just an entitlement. So I don't think it was anything Luke in particular, but I don't think he would have been wrong to been like, hey, you need to check yourself either.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: Okay. Uncle Rusty very much said he wanted to say something, but he said he was just trying to be respectful and not start something at the event. But I'm kind of, I don't know, part of me wishes he kind of would have.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: That's the thing. Like, I will say, like people, him and my mom's age, they're the don't give a crap point and we'll say stuff because they have, they just, they've earned that right. I think once you hit like 50s, you kind of start to earn more of that. Right. So it would have been nice if he'd said something just so you wouldn't have had to worry about it.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: Yeah, but I do. Like, I, I have seen him go too far, you know, and I know he knows that. And so I think he was just trying to make sure he didn't do that.
He never would have wanted to like embarrass me or something. But yeah, I think in this such situation it probably was warranted.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: It's always hard to know what to do, especially because you never want to embarrass your child.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Exactly. But he was frustrated with what they were doing.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: That wasn't right.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: And you would have.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: And that's why I'M glad I at least said something to her because. And I felt bad cuz she's like, I'm so sorry. I'm like, you know, they didn't do anything wrong. They were in a million places all over trying to run this event, her and her husband. So I know if they had known this was going on, she would have handled it for sure in the moment. But. But yeah. So that was what I wanted. Sometimes I struggle, like, do I just wait and handle this later or should I handle it in the moment? And it's hard, especially you said, not wanting to embarrass your kid.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: For our listeners, tell us what you think and what you would have done. Because we're always open to other mom advice because we all handle things differently and we're all different people and just kind of what you would have done because we always are curious, like how to be better moms. And we learn that from learning with other people.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: I think Paige, if she were there, she would have chunked their ball and looked at them and like, you're not shooting on his golf.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: I feel like if Ran would have been there, he would have called him like a titmouse, like from the Golden Girls, like insulted them and walked away.
So it's just different people do different things. So tell us what you would have done. Cuz it helps us to know how to react.
But I guess switching gears, bridging far gears.
Well, I don't know this. Ed Gein's whole issue stems from mama issues.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: So his mama didn't handle a lot of things right.
So.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
So this is kind of. Well, I will say one of the movies that terrified me the most is the movie Psycho because of the deep psychological impacts of it. I can sit there and watch you slash somebody like crazy and it's not gonna bother me.
It's not my favorite movie. But I will tell you, like, these deep psychological movies do a thing on me because I start to overthink them.
[00:08:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: I will say Psycho is one of the creepiest movies.
The original one. I know there was a remake. That doesn't count. The original one really got me. We actually watched it in English class at USC Union when I was a senior in high school.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: I remember y' all doing that. Yeah.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: We rent a Rose for Emily if you want to read a creepy book.
It's very much the same, like, keeping a corpse idea.
We read that and we watched Psycho as part of our English class. And so it really did a number on me. And at the time, I don't think I really knew who Ed Gein was. Like, I didn't know, like, the history of it. And I will say for anybody wanting to watch the new Netflix monster series, they really do a good job at showing how. So, like, it's not just about Ed Gein. It shows Alfred Hitchcock making Psycho, and it shows the making of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
And so Ed Gein pretty much changed our serial killer movies. He changed our horror movies because he made Psycho. And Psycho really changed how we see things. It became a lot more graphic.
Psycho is the first time you really see somebody get, like, in the shower.
You see one random fact, you see a toilet flush, which has never been seen. Not that that's graphic, but that is.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: But, like, the whole scene.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: And I love it.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:12] Speaker B: I did not know. So, like, I've grown up watching horror movies. I watched Scream. I watched. I know what you did last summer when I was in, like, middle school. I think, like, our whole group, the people, like, generation did that.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: So Psycho to me was not that scary in that type sense. It was more the psychological impact of this person keeping his dead mama's corpse.
But at the time, Psycho, people passed out in the theaters, people threw up. People, like, ran out because it was such a change of how stuff was done. So I just think that was a really cool thing that this Netflix series did, was show us how it Ed Gein and Alfred Hitchcock changed horror and then went on for Texas Chainsaw, which was graphic, really. I think he may be the one that really started our interest in serial killers. I mean, we've always had it, but I think because of the making of the Psycho movie, it really opened.
People have always been interested in weird stuff, but it really made it okay to have this interest.
So. So it was really interesting.
I binge watched it and my husband told me to stop because it was creepy. But I really enjoyed it.
It's gross.
And I will say, kind of talking about Ed Gein, I think we need to talk about the real him versus, like. And I can tell you the things that I think the documentary got wrong.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Because so they made it different than who he is.
Yeah. So. So in real life, Ed Gink grew up on a farm with his mom and his dad. And his dad died in Wisconsin, in.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: The middle of nowhere. Wisconsin.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: Right. And his mom, like, told him and his brother, like, the outside world is basically the devil. Like, women are the devil. They're horrible.
Everybody outside, like. So she really tried to keep them, like, entrapped on the farm and didn't let a lot of outsiders in. So they weren't socialized. They didn't get a lot of socialization.
And their mom just portrayed the outside world as this evil.
And so that's how he grew up. Like he didn't grow up in a normal functioning family with exposure to society. Really. He was really contained on this farm with his mom. And then eventually he started having like infatuations with his own mother.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: When I think is important. His mom hated his dad as part of this too. So like she leaned on the children in ways that she should not have. Not. I'm not saying sexually, not like that, but just like she made the children have emotional relations with her that should have been for a spouse or significant other. But she hated his dad. Yeah.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: Because she herself wasn't being socialized.
You know, she was keeping.
I definitely.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: But I. I do feel she was completely mentally unwell.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Very, very, very religious and like puritan level religious as everything was a sin pretty much.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: Right. And I think just.
I think she was mentally unwell and then taking religion to these extremes. So she wasn't socialized because she in her not right mind believed the outside world was bad. So it's not like she's upset with her husband and has a girlfriend that she can call and vent to, you know, or anybody to talk to. All she had because of what she created was her children. So yeah, so it absolutely passed on. Unhealthy relationship.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: What is it that Oedipus complex where you love your mom kind of thing from Shakespeare? Isn't it like.
[00:14:08] Speaker A: And I. I mean, yes, that is gross. I'm not saying that it's not. But like the like feelings are with involving sexual. Like that comes naturally to most people. There are exceptions. But for the most part, you know, males and females go through puberty and start to have sexual urges.
So like, I know people make edging into a monster. I'm not saying he didn't do things wrong, but at the same time, I mean, he was just set up for failure. So as he's going through puberty and starting to have these feelings of wanting to do things that are normal to do, there's nobody else around. Like, what else was.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: Well, also, I think during this time, it's important to note this is during World War II, which is.
He was very much influenced by stuff he saw from that as well. He's very secluded. But he also is influenced because we're seeing what they're doing in concentration camps.
We are seeing what.
I mean, this stuff that you've never seen before. Because then World War I was not the same as World War II. There were not people being put into concentration camps and killed and shaved and just treated less than people and treated in not human. They were treating Jews as if they were not human beings. And he is seeing this because we have printing presses, we have. It's just more out there than I think any other time prior to that is being able to see world news.
And that was one thing like doctors and stuff have said because of his mental conditions, he was more susceptible to these images that he's seeing. And these are images.
I know people like us who have been exposed to this our whole lives because we've been in the world we live in is different than somebody that lives in this. This was just a completely new world that he's seeing this stuff and he's mentally. They said he's schizophrenic. I don't really know if that's his true diagnosis. And there's been other people after, like psychologists, psychiatrists, all this have looked at his mental records and stuff and said they don't really know if that was the correct diagnosis, but that's kind of what they had at that time to diagnose him with. But because of his high susceptibility, he's got two things going on. You have seeing these images that you're very susceptible to due to his mental illness. And then you have his mom who is overbearing, overprotective. He doesn't know what's right or wrong. So it's like the ultimate culmination with his mental illness to make him do crazy things. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: And overall, like you had mentioned this we were talking about in this episode and he didn't kill that many people.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: So he's technically not a serial killer in a lot of definitions. Now there are thoughts and we can get. We may have to make this a two parter on Ed Gein at this point because there is so much to dive into.
But two people is all he actually has been charged of killing, confessed to killing. And we can talk about the others. But two. And I believe most standards of serial killer is three. Yeah.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: And I don't.
Do you feel like he. He really just had the urge to kill? Like I don't either.
[00:17:29] Speaker B: I don't know.
Kind of like thinking about him and this.
We'll dive more into the Netflix part of it, but just him as a person. The two people he killed were women. So he did have a type. But they were so I guess. Let's talk about him a little bit more. So he.
His mom. So his dad died, I believe, in 1940 or something. He was an alcoholic, from all accounts. Died of a stroke or something.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: Something with his liver.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: I mean, so he was like, natural cause of death. Nothing weird about it.
His brother then dies a few years later. I believe in 1944 was the year of his brother's death.
So there have been rumors that Ed killed his brother. I don't believe these rumors. His brother actually died in a fire.
And so, like, there are rumors that maybe he killed him because there was some bruising on the body, but the actual cause of death was like, a asphyxiation from, like, in smoke inhalation. And granted, this is back in the 1940s, so I don't know how much is what they knew then as far as medical examiners, but his brother dies, then his mom has a stroke. And probably due to a lot of the stress of her life, she had lost her son and her husband. Even she didn't love her husband. There's still somebody you lost. So she has a stroke, makes her very paralyzed and everything. And think about this. This is 1940s. We do not have the medical care that we have in today's time. And then she has a second stroke, so during a span of like, five years.
And then she does eventually die. But for a year, it is Ed and his mom in this house. And just so you know, they did not have plumbing. They did not have electricity. They were living like. And people did have that at that time. It wasn't that people didn't, but he was out in the middle of nowhere in Wisconsin on a farm.
And so, like, it's him and his mom, and that's all he has.
That's all he kind of thinks about, is taking care of his mom. He is her caretaker 100%. She had a stroke. So he probably does have to do things like bathe her, clean her, like, stuff that's hard to do in all of this. So that was his life. And then she passes away. And he has.
We can talk about his girlfriend and all those type things, but, like, realistically, as family, he has no family at this point.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: He.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: He's by himself.
And obviously, like, I don't know what mentally was wrong with him, but he had mental issues. He was disturbed. And so.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: And he didn't have an environment that helped it. Right. So, like, yeah, some mental illnesses are really hard to navigate. Even if you're set up in a family with a great Environment and stuff like that. But we also see a lot of people, you know, that have a good foundation, a good family that they come from, even with mental health issues. They navigate life pretty well considered, right? Even without treatment and stuff. But like he, I think, because I think his mom was very mentally ill. I don't know the extent of it, but like, I think she clung to the religious because we see that, right? Like we see that with the guy, the Waco guy, remember him?
Like, he I don't think was well. And so he went very extreme religious based to portray bad things. And so I really think his mom did the same thing and she was not well. And so I think he probably had similar to her that mental illness. And then on top of it, there's no good environmental structure to even try to thrive. Like, right. That is having a chance again just really didn't have a chance.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: That's what some, like I read some like articles by like psychiatrists and like medical professionals today.
Would he have killed people in today's time? And that might have been enough. Like nobody's gonna know this for sure. Like we're never gonna know. And obviously what he did is wrong. We are not in any way saying he wasn't wrong. But he is not nearly the monster a lot of people are. Because in today's time, could he have gotten help? Could he have gotten medicine? Could he have dealt? But like, pretty much he was in the ultimate storm of all the stuff he's seeing with the people being treated less than and very, very those images were playing into him. He's isolated his mom. So in today's time, yes, like he was in the worst environment possible. But also on top of that, we're in the 1940s, we don't have medical help. I mean, pretty much people that do have mental illnesses are just stuck in an insane asylum and you don't care about them. And they're less than in that day and time.
I had a cousin actually who was autistic and during this time and he couldn't even go to school.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: So.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: So like they wouldn't let him go to. He was. I don't know, he'd be like 80 something years old today. So whatever that would make him bored him. But he couldn't even go to school. So obviously we're in a different time. Ed GE's not going to school because he's middle of nowhere and his mama doesn't want him to go to school.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: To learn anything differently than what she's teaching him.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: So I Mean, I do think. No, like, I don't think he's a serial killer, Gene. I think he was in this terrible situation with mom and the world because we said he only killed twice. And they were not back to back.
I believe it was 54 and 57 is when he killed and he killed two women that reminded him of his mom. That's why he killed him, because they remind. Because his mom dies in like 45.
And so he wanted his mom back. I mean, it's really gross. And then. So I guess one thing we haven't talked about with him, and I think most people know he was a grave robber. That is why he's so infamous. What he did was go rob grapes. He would look in the newspaper and see obituaries. And he. Only women's grapes, not men's, women's. He went and robbed graves. I think 15 plus graves is what he said. But that's where it's really. That's where like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and all that come into play is because he was robbing graves for body parts.
And that, I think, is what the murders in themselves. He did kill. He butchered him.
But I believe his mom actually ran a butcher shop beforehand. And like, he saw her butcher pigs and stuff. And supposedly the sight of that made him vomit. So he wasn't.
And I don't know. I can't find any reports. Like, I tried to go back and see, like, news articles at the time, but, like, obviously stuff's not the same. But I didn't see the stuff we see in a lot of serial killers that, like, they were cruel to animals. Like, those type things.
He killed two people after his mom died that reminded him of his mom while he was taking body parts from graves. So he's definitely not the typical, like, serious. And you don't know his, like, social skills because he had none.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: And so I really. I'm so glad, you know, we have him in this month, right, because we did serial killer September and it's spooky October. And there are some things he did. It was spooky with the grave ro robbing and the body parts. He made a belt of nipples, you know, and so there were spooky, creepy things. You know, I definitely am, like I said, glad we put him in October because it is more spooky than serial killer. Like, serial killers that we've talked about last month really did want to kill people. And we talked about, like, Eileen Warnos. She was not going to stop Te Bunny was not going to stop the.
[00:25:03] Speaker B: Only reason they stopped is because they were called where I don't like and.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: I don't know, we can't say that he would maybe if they reminded of his mom and stuff, but.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: But I don't think he killed for the fun of kid. Like serial killers kill because they have to kill. Like it's like that hot. Like you have like an alcoholic, you drink, you heal. I don't think he had that at all. I don't think it was that inside of him. Oh, I need to go kill somebody. Because he wasn't doing this. Like I don't think he killed until 1954. And he was born in 1906. Yeah. So he was about 50 years old.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: And like going off his mental health issues and I don't know if we want to wrap this up and then bring this back up in a second part, but I do want to talk about he was found not competent. And so Lauren, do you want to wrap up and then just have a part two next week and dive into the Netflix documentary more and what competency means?
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that. I think he is so complex and how he influenced pop culture so much in our movies. I don't want to do him injustice because I think of him different than our other serial killers. Like Ted Bundy can ride in hell forever. I do not care.
But like he is different. He's more complex and he had a really sort of never should kill people I. I won't like. But I think he just has been mis portrayed through all of history and.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: I think he's portrayed in pop culture.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Yes. Like he definitely was. I think who he was in Psycho is probably more of who he was. And I think we can dive into that with Netflix and get into some of the legal prospects about it because like Lacy said, he didn't even go to trial for years because of incompetency.
So I think it's important to understand the complexities of. Of him. So yes. And since we're going to end and have this as a two parter, if anybody has special comments they want to make, AKA Aaron, please go ahead and send me a text or send us a DM on Instagram to our other.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: Listeners or my friend Carson, that's my prosecutor friend, he called me today to talk about a case and he said he listens. He's been listening to other podcasts because it's football season, but he's putting us back in his rotation. So.
[00:27:18] Speaker B: Hey, Carson. And if you're any of our friends that watch this and want a shout out, just text us because we love talking about you and share our stuff. That's the biggest thing you can do if you're a friend or a listener is share it. Like, put it on your Instagram story. Because we think we're pretty great to listen to.
[00:27:38] Speaker A: I think we're hilarious.
But stay, y'. All. Tune in next week. Next week we're going to dive more into the Netflix documentary. And then we're going to go into why he was not competent, what that means. You know, we think about the reasonable person standard. So how come he didn't meet that standard and what that looks like here in South Carolina? So join us next week as we dive into that.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: Have a good week.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Bye.
