Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: It's Lacey and I'm Lauren. And welcome to another episode of the Llamas podcast.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: So today we are going to dive into the America's Next Top Model documentary.
But before that, as most of you know, me and Lacey are alums from the University of South Carolina. And this week, Lou Holtz has passed away. And for those of you who don't really know me, I used to adopt people as my grandpas.
My grandpa died when I was very young, like I was like in kindergarten. So, like I never had like the grandpa relationship. And I would always adopt cute little old men and say they were my grandpa kind of highlight. Barney, on how I met your mother always said Bob Barker was his dad. I have the same with the grandpas.
And so Lou Holtz was one of mine and he is one of my all time favorite coaches, favorite person.
And we just want to have a moment for his family and friends know we're thinking about them, praying about him. I know they'll never watch this, but you're in our thoughts and prayers.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: And I mean, you just always heard such great things about Lou Holtz.
Some of the quotes that he had were just so impactful and powerful. He really was. He seemed like such a good, just human and a good soul. So he will definitely be missed. And 2026 has taken a hit on us or actually found out. Yesterday I lost a client and and older gentleman. I think I can say that without getting in trouble, but that's all I'll say. And he was so kind. He used to bring us flowers on Valentine's Day and Mother's Day, but we didn't find out until yesterday. We knew he was in the hospital, but it's just been kind of a rough year losing some very special people.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: Yes. And I will say for little Holtz, when he left Carolina, he went because his wife was sick and he had to take care of her. So I think for them, it's nice to think that they're together again. And he was 89 years old and he lived a wonderful life. But like, I think it was what yesterday was like Catherine o' Hara's birthday. So it was like shouldn't even make it to that. So it has been a rough year. 2026, stop taking all these great people from us.
But let's get into some not great stuff from the early 2000s.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So I didn't watch all of America's Next Top Model, like all the seasons
[00:02:35] Speaker A: quit at some point.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So I did watch some.
So I did know a few People that were on the documentary. And there were some things I didn't know about at all.
But I can't say I'm utterly shocked at the documentary. Like, it was kind of what I expected it to be since the 2000s were so horrible with a lot of things, if I'm being honest. Like, growing up in that time period and remembering it, there was nothing that was watching that was just shocked to my core. It was more just like, yeah, this is such a problem with this time period, and I'm so glad we are better about it today.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: I guess what bothered me is how Tyra took no accountability. Like, she was just like, I didn't have anything to do with that. That's the television people. Like, that's what bothered me the most, that she comes in there with her little trench coat and was like, oh, I'm here to empower women. I'm here to empower women of color. And then at the end of the day, she never accepted. Like, if you watched America's Next Top Model, we all know Janice Dickinson was mean and terrible, but I think Janice accepts that fact. And it's just. She's okay with people calling her a kind of situation. But Tyra was almost. And Janice is not in the documentary. I would have loved for her to been in it, but I just felt like out of all of them, like, Tyra felt no remorse. Even the producer, the guy. I can't remember his name, but he even said, yeah, that was a really bad idea. I shouldn't have done that. Tyler at no point took any accountability for any of it.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: She did do a little. It wasn't much, but she did take some. She did feel bad about the. I think it was her name, Danielle, with the tooth gap and making her, like, hate herself to close her gap. She did say she felt bad for. There was, like, two or three things. I remember her saying she should not have done that.
And she remembered, I guess with all
[00:04:40] Speaker A: of hers, I shouldn't have done that. It was never, like, fully accountable. It was like, well, I shouldn't have done that. But that was how it was at the time. Like, yeah, fully.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Yeah, she said. And she said she apologized, but, like, there was minimal accountability. Accountability for sure. So for me, that too bothered me, because I know at one point she said, well, that wasn't me. That was the producers. But this was your show, your idea. This is my law office, you know,
[00:05:09] Speaker A: so if come back and say, I spent hours editing that film.
Yeah, so you can't have your cake and eat it Too. You either are not a producer at all and had no control.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Don't take credit for the con, like, for the producing on the good parts.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And I want to say this about Janice.
Was what she said absolutely cruel and horrible? Yes, absolutely. Was she stating what was going on in the industry?
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: I mean, she was mean. She was ruthless. But that was the industry at that time.
I don't like what she said, and I hate that the industry was that at that time. But if we're being honest, the commentary that Janice gave was exact commentary. Models were getting in the industry at that time.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: So you were fat.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And so this was America's Next Top Model. If she's there to say, this is how you become that and you can make it in this industry, she's saying what they're looking for. It was horrible. But I think that's a good thing to mention, is that that was that time period, and we have grown. We've had women break those barriers.
And I'm. Like I said, I'm grateful for that. But you can hate what Jan said, and she is wrong. I'm not saying that, but it also was accurate. It's wrong, but it was accurate for the industry at that time. And I think. And that's why Tyra set out to make the show, because she wanted to change that and make it better. And I think at the beginning, her intentions were good to make the show. I love what the intent of the show was, but that clearly got lost. And I want to know how like. Like, was she just so consumed with making a good TV show that she didn't care about her intentions anymore? Or did fame get to her head and money or what? Because her.
[00:07:09] Speaker A: Did you ever really, truly have those intentions, or did she want to build an empire?
[00:07:14] Speaker B: I think she did have those intentions because at one point, she did bite back at Janice. And there. There were some clips from the beginning seasons where it did seem that that was her intent, but it clearly was lost.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Well, I want to take a second and ask about some of the legal parts of it. So if y' all watch the documentary or you've watched the show, you know, they go on there, they sign releases and all this stuff. But let's talk about Shandy. She broke my heart.
That was so sad. The one that got very drunk and had sexual relations with somebody, and all of it was recorded. She was not able to consent because she was completely. And I will say this is a time, I think before.
I think in the early 2000s when this happened, we still knew everything, but yes means no. But we were very. Not as much dealing.
I just feel like that wasn't looked at as much as rape back then because, like, the guy was drunk, too. She was. I'm not saying there's a lot of
[00:08:20] Speaker B: women shaming back then. It was, well, you shouldn't have gotten so drunk, you know, as a woman. Like, this wouldn't have happened if you weren't wearing a tight skirt or a bathing suit and had gotten drunk. So it's your fault that you got incapacitated and were wearing certain clothing. That's how it was in the 2000s. It wasn't like, no, this is wrong. This is rape. She didn't consent. She's not in a place of consent. And they can wear whatever the hell they want. That's not an invitation to rape someone.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: But back then, that's what they were told, this scenario. I'm not saying the guy was at fault here either, because I don't know, he may have not been able to consent either. It could have been that we don't know how drunk he was. Yeah, we don't know that. But at the end of the day, the producers, the film cameras and all those people were not drunk.
They were not. Did they have any liability for this? I mean, like, I know if she had. I know she signed all these documents and that type stuff, but at the end of the day, she never consented. I don't think she consented to having that type part of her life. And the fact that they continued to film when they knew she was so inebriated and could not consent anymore. So taking out the guy, I mean, I don't know what both their states were there, but we know the people filming it and the people making it were sober. In making these decisions, is there any type accountability for them?
[00:09:47] Speaker B: I mean, I don't.
I don't think criminally, but I do think.
I do think she could have filed a lawsuit because from what they were saying is she did sign a release. That or in the document, they could not film them going into the bathroom alone.
But then their little loophole was that she wasn't alone because she took him in there. And I think that was a loophole, and I think she could have followed it. Because here's the thing. What if two of the girls were in the bathroom because they're getting ready and one's in the shower, one's putting on her makeup, or one's using the bathroom? You're not going to use that loophole. Then they only used it for drama, and I think it was disgusting.
She's unclothed, and she's clearly intoxicated. Clearly intoxicated? Yeah. Yeah. No, I.
If I was, I could not. I would have had to stop filming. Like, hey, stop. This is not okay. She's too drunk. I don't know where you are, but that we're gonna end this and gotten somebody to get Shandy to bed.
That's what would have been the appropriate thing to do.
And I still think that is television, and that's teaching something. Like, people still would have watched for that and just said, oh, this was about to happen. Producer stepped in and do an after interview with Shandy. I was so upset. I can't believe that almost happened. You still could have shown that, and it still would have been effective television without recording someone getting raped. Because at the end of the day, that's what it is. And I'm not saying he might not have been too drunk, but she was not in her right state of mind to do that. I'm not saying he should be criminally charged. If he was just as impaired.
I don't think he should be criminally charged. But at the end of the day, she was violated, and I'm not faulting him if he was just as drunk or her for being just as drunk. But at the end of the day, that's where that situation was. It should have never been recorded. She was not dressed. She did not consent to being filmed naked and in her bathroom. That, to me, was just a loophole they were trying to use for trash.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: When I think, like, when you signed, I guess, like, for me, thinking about America's Next Top Model, when I'm signing the releases, I'm not thinking about sex in that situation. I'm thinking about, okay, I'm releasing to let people know, like, yes. Body shaming. They knew that was coming. Like, all that stuff even. I hate what she about that girl's tooth with the Gap, because the girl was beautiful, and I think that gave her character.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: But.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: But you knew that type physical shaming was coming.
I don't think when you signed up for America's Next Top Model, you thought about intimate relationships. It's way different. Like, I know I watch some reality tv, like, Love is Blind and like, you know, the dating shows, I mean, you can see in those that you may be consenting to having those moments videoed, because that's the part of the show I feel like with America's Next Top Model, they never thought because normally, like, they didn't bring people of the opposite sex in except for, you know, for shoots and stuff. Like, you were not.
I feel like they intended this to happen, honestly, because they brought those boys in, knew they were drunk. And you know, these girls are not eating anything because they're trying to stay skinny. And you're loading them up on alcohol, which they're going to get drunk really quick.
Right?
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And like, I remember a few years back, you remember bachelor in paradise shutting down.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: Yes. And that's. They now have rules in place. Right. Bachelor in Paris, it was that blonde headed girl, what's her name? Korean? Kareem. I can't remember.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:33] Speaker A: And they said that they were too drunk to consent. And so now on bachelor in paradise, there's like a two drink rule or something. So that way, like, there's no issues of consent because they are watching what you drink to make sure you are fully aware of your decisions.
[00:13:54] Speaker B: And they shut down production. Like after that happened, they shut down production to try to figure out like, oh, gosh, this is a problem. This, we can't have this. We don't want this to happen.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: But like made it right by putting stuff in place.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: And America's next top model just continues to defend it. And going back. Like a similar thing was when they were doing that photo shoot and the girl, the woman said the guy was hitting on her and she didn't want the photos with them. And that was another half ass accountability. That's what I said. She took accountability. But like you said, it was. When she did, it was half assed. Well, I thought I was empowering her when I said this because you have to deal with that in the industry. But I realize now I should have done something different.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: It's like she was saying, well, that's what happens in the industry. But you were trying to change the industry.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: If you're trying to change the industry, do something else. Like, that's where I was. Like, the intent was lost. You were trying to change the industry, but the intent was clearly lost.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: Women shouldn't be violated no matter if it is happening in the modeling industry.
Stop.
Like, this was your chance. I will say I felt Nigel was probably the most apologetic out of all of them. Yeah. Something about him just came off really genuine, sincere. Yeah. And I don't know, maybe it's because I liked him from the start.
I will say, Ms. J. I do. Like I.
I'm going to say something. I don't know if he would be the same person he was without having that stroke. But I think that stroke, which I hate, he had it. But I definitely think that has shown him. And it broke my heart. Yeah. I was talking about I taught people how to walk, and now I'm going to have to teach myself.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: I didn't realize he couldn't walk, like, to the end when he said that. I didn't realize that he had lost that ability and hadn't gotten it back.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: All of that. I kept up with it, like, with some of that stuff, and I thought it was really sweet. But this shows you the type person Tyra is because Jay, Nigel went to visit. Yeah. Him. While he was in the hospital recovering. And Tyra, to say that was one of her best friends.
And I also think some of this stuff Tyra did, if it wasn't in the industry, it was like the entertainment industry. I definitely think there was claims that Ms. J and Jay and Nigel could have made for, like, employment harassment. Because I do think the way.
The way Jay said she treated him on set and all of that was.
I mean, I think that could be employment harassment, but in that industry and the fact that they signed all these contracts and everything and.
But I think that on set, I think if that was a normal workplace, we would see lawsuits coming out of it. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: I think we could have seen them regardless. But I think the girls were just too scared and so young, and it was such a different time then, so they probably didn't think they could do anything. But I think in today's world, even in the place of a TV show with those same contracts, there would have been at least lawsuits and settlements. I really do.
And I just over overall, like, Tyra had such a good opportunity and she just failed.
And then at the end, she talked
[00:17:09] Speaker A: about America's Next top model, cycle 25 or whatever. I'm like, girl, did you learn nothing?
[00:17:15] Speaker B: I mean, I'll watch it. If she has nothing to do with it. If she has nothing to do with it and somebody else is running the show.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: Sure.
I will say, I do think overall, you're right. So much of this stuff was accurate. Like, you were fat, unless you were bony, skinny. And like, the body shaming in the model industry was real. Like, you were toothpicks.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: If we're being honest, there are probably. It's probably still going on. Yes, it's gotten better. And. But there are probably still some agencies, companies that are still like that. I think many have. Have changed, you know, so, yeah, like, and I love when celebrities will post, like, their little mom pooches, you know, like that little piece of fat underneath your belly button and normalize it, because that is such a normal body. That's so real. And I appreciate that. And so I just wish we could have had an America's Next Top Model that was real. That was real women, real body sizes and types. Healthy, sure.
But that's. That's. That's what's impactful to me. And I think a lot of people feel the same.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: I think it's important to note that healthy and weight aren't always, like, synonymous, like I will say. So I went and had my blood work done this past week, so, like, I got, like, my cholesterol, all that stuff.
I am considered overweight, not obese, but overweight by the body weight standards. My husband is considered completely in his body weight standards, and all my cholesterol and all that was better than him. So, I mean, it just goes to show you, like, you know, just because you're a certain size doesn't mean you're healthier than somebody else.
And I think that was one thing. Like, America's Next Top Model was not making these women healthy. I mean, when you're not having your menstrual cycle because you're not getting enough nutrition, that's not healthy. And I think that's a big change where I think our society has done a lot better at promoting healthy over just your basic image of skinny is healthy when we know that's not true.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, we are starting to see. I mean, I hate everybody going after Kelly Osborne, especially right now, because she's dealing with the loss of her dad, you know, but she. She's very tiny, and maybe that is healthy for her, but we don't know. But I am glad that we recognize it across the board, you know, that everybody has different. Like, you know, you. I think in the 2000s, everybody would be praising Kelly for how tiny she is and wanting to be that way. Whereas now it's like, okay, are you okay? Are you healthy? If so, that's great. That's fine. Don't want to shame her. But, you know, I think we do recognize that. I remember when Whitney from not Laguna beach, the heels. The heels people commented and was like, you know, are you okay? Are you healthy? Because she was so frail and she wasn't. And she came out and said, I'm not. I'm not eating what I'm supposed to be eating. I'm not taking care of myself and my body. I am too small, and I need to gain weight. I don't think any of those conversations Would have happened in the 2000s.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: Well, I also think the same with Kelly Osborne and her mom, Sharon. I think they all know that they're going through grief with dealing with the loss of ay and I think a lot of the questions about her body are not so much on her looks. But are you okay? Because, like, she.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: We love you, girl.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: A big personality. And I know that she's going through grief, But Sharon honestly admitted, I believe, that she had been taking oic and lost too much weight and now she can't gain it back kind of thing. And I think that could be grief.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: Why she can't gain it back.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: I mean, they're dealing with a lot, But I do think it's. Now we're seeing that we shouldn't body shame, no matter what size you are. But we also shouldn't think that people's health is indicated purely by their body size. And look, Tyra, she is not skinny anymore, and she, like, wants to flaunt her curves. The same thing she was trying to stop women from having, you know.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: Because that one girl, I can't remember which. What her name was, but she was
[00:21:33] Speaker B: like, the one that was plus size. That's not plus size.
[00:21:37] Speaker A: Not the white girl, the African American girl that they made her be, like, the elephant or, you know, that that's
[00:21:44] Speaker B: who had the inappropriate touching with the guy.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: That's you.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Kept going on about that. And she literally was thin as could be. She just had some. A little bit of curve to her, like, and she was jealous. She didn't have as much curve as other women.
[00:21:57] Speaker B: And, like, that was another thing. You know, they told her she was ashy, and then she started using lotion, and then people coming on her, put lotion on the doorknobs.
She had, like, Tara had such a great opportunity to build an empire that promoted black women, that embraced black beauty, which was so needed in the 2000s. It's. It's so much. It's getting better today, but it's still needed today. And she failed. She. Absolutely. I think she felt most at that, like, that you had such a great opportunity to display that, and you. You made it worse in my show.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: That could have really showcased diversity. You had her as she's, I believe, mixed, I think.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: And then you had, like, Ms. J and Jay, who are not white, one is Hispanic and one is black. And, you know, Nigel, who.
He said what he was, but I can't remember.
[00:23:01] Speaker B: Like, you had a diverse cast, diverse people.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: You could have really shown this. You could have Also shown, diversity works in every environment. But you didn't and you still to this day don't want to take accountability for it. And I think she was delusional going into it. I truly think she was there to like be praised. And when the documentary comes out, I think she saw herself in a different light.
[00:23:29] Speaker B: You think she sees herself in a different light?
[00:23:31] Speaker A: No, she's gonna say she's victimized by that.
[00:23:34] Speaker B: Oh, I gotcha.
[00:23:35] Speaker A: Okay. The documentary, she's gonna say, showed her differently than what she anticipated the documentary's purpose was.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, no, I can see that for sure.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: So that kind of wraps up our America's Next Top Model. But if you didn't grow up in the 2000s and stuff, it is an accurate depiction. And you know, if you do go back and watch it, definitely appreciate where we are now and keep forward to never go back there.
You know, I'll never forget seeing the headlines of Kim Kardashian when she was pregnant and being compared to a whale. And the whole time she had preeclampsia.
You know, just so many things are so disgusting and women deserve better.
We deserve to be embraced for what our bodies are.
I am a size 6 and I'm considered overweight by BMI purposes as well.
That shouldn't even be a thing. But all my blood work physical wise came back that I just recently got was great. You know, there were certain deficiencies I had that affect my mental health that I'm on some vitamins and supplements on. But my physical health was great even though I'm considered overweight and a size 6. So if you're listening to this and you're a woman or a girl, you are beautiful no matter what.
Healthy comes in all shapes and sizes.
[00:24:56] Speaker A: And let us know your feelings, watch the documentary, send us DMs, let us know and we'll be back. We're working on some more ideas and we will be back next week. Bye.
